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Classic Woman
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 01:32 am

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Hugh Fitzgerald: Ten Things to Think When Thinking of Muslim "Moderates"


Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald's brilliant and absolutely must-be-read exploration of the very concept of moderate Islam and the existence of moderate Muslims:

1. Not only Muslims, but "islamochristians" objectively promote and push the propagandistic line that disguises the Jihad (evidence of which can be found worldwide), and mislead as to both what prompts that Jihad (not "poverty" or "foreign policy" but the precepts of the belief-system of Islam) and what will sate it (not Kashmir, not Chechnya, not the absurd "two-state solution," not continued appeasement in France and Holland -- there is nothing that will sate or satisfy it, as long as part of the globe is as yet resistent to the rule of Islam). "Christians" such as Fawaz Gerges or Rami Khoury, or someone who was born a Christian, such as Edward Said, are Arabs whose views are colored by that self-perception. Their loyalty to the community and history of Arabs causes them to be as loyal to the Islamic view of things as if they had been born Muslim. They stoutly defend Islam against all of Western scholarship (in Orientalism), or divert attention away from Islam and constantly assert, in defiance of all the evidence, from Bali to Beslan to Madrid, that the "problem of Israel/Palestine" -- the latest, and most sinister formulation of the Jihad against Israel -- is the fons et origo of Muslim hostility and murderous aggression throughout the world. Save for the Copts and Maronites, who regard themselves not as Arabs but as "users" of the "Arabic language" (and reject the idea that such "users" therefore become "Arabs"), many Arab Christians have crazily embraced the Islamic agenda; the agenda, that is, of those who have made the lives of Christians in the Middle East so uncertain, difficult, and at times, imperilled. The attempt to be "plus islamiste que les islamistes" -- the approach of Rami Khoury and Hanan Ashrawi -- simply will not do, for it has not worked. It is Habib Malik and other Maronites in Lebanon who have analysed the problem of Islam in a clear-eyed fashion. Indeed, the best book on the legal status of non-Muslims under Islam is that of the Lebanese (Maronite) scholar Antoine Fattal.
Any "islamochristian" Arab who promotes the Islamic agenda, by participating in a campaign that can only mislead Infidels and put off their understanding of Jihad and its various instruments, is objectively as much part of the problem as the Muslim who knowingly practices taqiyya in order to turn aside the suspicions of non-Muslims. Whoever acts so as to keep the unwary Infidel unwary is helping the enemy.

Think, for a minute, of Oskar Schindler. A member of the Nazi Party, but hardly someone who followed the Nazi line. But what if Schindler had at some point met with Westerners -- and had continued, himself, to deny that the Nazis were engaged in genocide, even if he himself deplored it and would later act against it? Would we think of him as a "moderate"? As someone who had helped the anti-Nazi coalition to understand what it was up against?

Or for another example, think of Ilya Ehrenburg, who in 1951 or so was sent abroad by Stalin to lie about the condition of Yiddish-speaking intellectuals whom Stalin had recently massacred. Ehrenburg went to France, went to Italy. He did as he was told. "Peretz? Markish? Oh, yes, saw Peretz at his dacha last month with his grandson. Such a jovial fellow. Markish -- he was great last year in Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District -- you should see how it comes across in zhargon, Yiddish..." And so it went. Eherenburg lied, and lied. He was not a Stalinist. He hated Stalin. He of course hated the destruction of Peretz, Markish, and many others who had been killed many months before -- as Ehrenburg knew perfectly well. When he went abroad and lied to the editors of Nouvelle Revue Francaise, what was he? Objectively, he was promoting the interests of Joseph Stalin, and the Red Army, and the Politburo. We need not inquire into motives. We need only see what the results of such lying were. And the same is true of those Christian Arabs who lie on behalf of Islam -- some out of fear, some out of an ethnocentric identification so strong that they end up defending Islam, the religion of those who persecuted the Christian Arabs of the Middle East, and some out of venality (if Western diplomats and journalists can be on the Arab take, why not Arabs themselves?), some out of careerism. If you want to rise in the academic ranks, and your field is the Middle East, unless you are a real scholar -- Cook or Crone or Lewis -- better to parrot the party line, which costs you nothing and gains you friends in tenure-awarding, grant-giving, reference-writing circles. There is at least one example, too, among those mentioned, in a situation where an Arabic-speaking Christian, attempting to find refuge from Muslim persecution, needed the testimony of an "expert" -- which "expert," instead of offering a pro-bono samaritan act, demanded so much money to be involved (in a fantastic display of greed) that the very idea of solidarity among Arab Christians was called by this act permanently into question.

2. The word "moderate" cannot be reasonably applied to any Muslim who continues to deny the contents -- the real contents, not the sanitized or gussied-up contents -- of Qur'an, hadith, and sira. Whether that denial is based on ignorance, or based on embarrassment, or based on filial piety (and an unwillingness to wash dirty ideological laundry before the Infidels) is irrelevant. Any Muslim who, while seeming to deplore every aspect of Muslim aggression, based on clear textual sources in Qur'an and hadith, or on the example of Muhammad as depicted in the accepted sira -- Muhammad that "model" of behavior -- is again, objectively, acting in a way that simply misleads the Infidels. And any Muslim who helps to mislead Infidels about the true nature of Islam cannot be called a "moderate." That epithet is simply handed out a bit too quickly for sensible tastes.

3. What of a Muslim who says -- there are terrible things in the sira and hadith, and we must find a way out, so that this belief-system can focus on the rituals of individual worship, and offer some sustenance as a simple faith for simple people? This would require admitting that a great many of Muhammad's reported acts must either be denied, or given some kind of figurative interpretation, or otherwise removed as part of his "model" life. As for the hadith, somehow one would have to say that Bukhari, and Muslim, and the other respected muhaddithin had not examined those isnad-chains with quite the right meticulousness, and that many of the hadith regarded as "authentic" must be reduced to the status of "inauthentic." And, following Goldziher, doubt would have to be cast on all of the hadith, as imaginative elaborations from the Qur'an, without any necessarily independent existence.

4. This leaves the Qur'an. Any "moderate" who wishes to prevent inquiry into the origins of the Qur'an -- whether it may be the product of a Christian sect, or a Jewish sect, or of pagan Arabs who decided to construct a book, made up partly of Christian and Jewish material mixed with bits and pieces of pagan Arab lore from the time of the Jahiliya -- or to prevent philological study (of, for example, Aramaic and other loan-words) -- anyone who impedes the enterprise of subjecting the Qur'an to the kind of historical inquiry that the Christian and Jewish Bibles have undergone in the past 200 years of inquiry, is not a "moderate" but a fervent Defender of the Faith. One unwilling to encourage such study -- which can only lead to a move away from literalness for at least some of the Believers -- again is not "moderate."

5. The conclusion one must reach is that there are, in truth, very few moderates. For if one sees the full meaning of Qur'an, hadith, and sira, and sees how they have affected the behavior of Muslims both over 1400 years of conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims, and in stunting the development -- political, economic, moral, and intellectual -- of Muslims everywhere, it is impossible not to conclude that this imposing edifice is not in any sense moderate or susceptible to moderation.

What must an intelligent Muslim, living through the hell of the Islamic Republic of Iran, start to think of Islam? Or that Kuwaiti billionaire, with houses in St. James Place and Avenue Foch and Vevey, as well as the family/company headquarters in Kuwait City, who sends his children to the American School in Kuwait, and boasts that they know English better than they know Arabic, helps host Fouad Ajami when he visits Kuwait, is truly heartsick to see Kuwait's increasing islamization? Would he allow himself to say what he knows in public, or in front of half-brothers, or to friends -- knowing that at any moment, they may be scandalized by his free-thinking views, and that he may run the risk of losing his place in the family's pecking order and, what's more, in the family business?

The mere fact that Muslim numbers may grow in the Western world represents a permanent threat to Infidels. This is true even if some, or many, of those Muslims are "moderates" -- i.e. do not believe that Islam has some kind of divine right, and need, to expand until it covers the globe and swallows up dar al-harb. For if they are still to be counted in the Army of Islam, not as Deserters (Apostates) from that Army, their very existence in the Bilad al-kufr helps to swell Muslim ranks, and therefore perceived Muslim power. And even the "moderate" father may sire immoderate children or grandchildren -- that was the theme of the Hanif Kureishi film, quasi-comic but politically acute, "My Son the Fanatic." Whether through Da'wa or large families, any growth in the Muslim population will inhibit free expression (see the fates of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh, and the threats made to Geert Wilders, Carl Hagen, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and many others), for politicans eager to court the Muslim vote will poohpooh Muslim outrages and strive to have the state yield to Muslim demands -- for the sake of short-term individual gain. And Muslim numbers, even with "moderates," increases the number of Muslim missionaries -- for every Muslim is a missionary -- whether conducting "Sharing Ramadan" Outreach in the schools (where a soft-voiced Pakistani woman is usually the soothing propagandist of choice), or Da'wa in a prison. The more Muslims there are, the more there will be -- and no one knows which "moderate" will end up distinctly non-moderate in his views, and then in his acts.

And this brings up the most important problem: the impermanance of "moderate" attitudes. What makes anyone think that someone who this week or month has definitely turned his back on Jihad, who will have nothing to do with those he calls the "fanatics," if he does not make a clean break with Islam, does not become a "renegade" or apostate, will at some point "revert" not to Islam, which he never left, but to a more devout form, in which he now subscribes to all of its tenets, and not merely to a few having to do with rites of individual worship?

6. The examples to the contrary are both those of individuals, and of whole societies. As for individual Muslims, some started out as mild-mannered and largely indifferent to Islam, and then underwent some kind of crisis and reverted to a much more fanatical brand of Islam. That was the case with urban planner Mohammad Atta, following his disorienting encounter with modern Western ways in Hamburg, Germany -- Reeperbahn and all. That was also the case with "Mike" Hawash, the Internet engineer earning $360,000 a year, who seemed completely integrated (American wife, Little League for the children, friends among fellow executives at Intel who would swear up and down that he was innocent) -- until one fine day, after the World Trade Center attacks, he made out his will, signed the house over to his wife, and set off to fight alongside the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan (he got as far as China) against his fellow Americans. In other words, if fanatical Muslims exist, it does not mean that they all start out as fanatics. Islam is the necessary starting place, and what sets off a "moderate" may have little to do with anything the Infidels do, any question of foreign policy -- it may simply be a crisis in an individual Muslim's life, to which he seeks an answer, not surprisingly, in ... more Islam.

7. Much the same lesson can be drawn from the experience of whole societies. In passing, one can note that the position of Infidels under the Pahlevi regime was better than it had been for centuries -- and under the regime that followed, that of the Islamic Republic of Iran, that position of Infidels became worse than it had been for centuries. "Secularism" in Islamic countries is never permanent; the weight and the threat of Islam is ever-present.

The best example of this is Turkey since 1924, when Ataturk began his reforms. He tried in every way he could -- through the Hat Act (banishing the salat-friendly fez); commissioning a Turkish translation of the Qur'an and an accompanying tafsir (commentary) in Turkish; ending the use of Arabic script for Turkish; establishing government control of the mosques (even attacking recalcitrant imams and destroying their mosques); giving women the right to vote; establishing a system that discouraged the wearing of the hijab; encouraging Western dress; and discouraging, in the army, preferment of any soldier who showed too great an interest in religion. This attempt to constrain Islam was successful, and was reinforced by the national cult of Ataturk.

But the past few decades have shown that Islam does not die; it keeps coming back. In Turkey, it never went away, despite the creation of a secular stratum of society that amounts perhaps to 25% of the population, with another 25% wavering, and 50% still definitely traditional Muslims. Meanwhile, Turks in Germany become not less, but more fervent in their faith. And Turks in Turkey, of the kind who follow Erdogan, show that they may at any moment emerge and take power -- and slowly (very slowly, as long as that EU application has not been acted on, one way or another) they can undo Ataturk. He was temporary; Islam is forever.

8. That is why even the designation of some Muslims as "moderates" in the end means almost nothing. They swell Muslim numbers and the perceived Muslim power; "moderates" may help to mislead, to be in fact even more effective practitioners of taqiyya/kitman, for their motive may simply be loyalty to ancestors or embarrassment, not a malign desire to fool Infidels in order to disarm and then ultimately to destroy them.

9. For this reason, one has to keep one's eye always on the objective situation. What will make Infidels safer from a belief-system that is inimical to art, science, and all free inquiry, that stunts the mental growth, and that is based on a cruel Manichaean division of the world between Infidel and Believer? And the answer is: limiting the power –- military, political, diplomatic, economic power -- of all Muslim polities, and Muslim peoples, and diminishing, as much as possible, the Muslim presence, however amiable and plausible and seemingly untroubling a part of that presence may appear to be, in all the Lands of the Infidels. This is done not out of any spirit of enmity, but simply as an act of minimal self-protection -- and out of loyalty and gratitude to those who produced the civilization which, however it has been recently debased by its own inheritors, would disappear altogether were Muslims to succeed in islamizing Europe -- and then, possibly, other parts of the world as well.

10. "There are Muslim moderates. Islam itself is not moderate" is Ibn Warraq's lapidary formulation. To this one must add: we Infidels have no sure way to distinguish the real from the feigning "moderate" Muslim. We cannot spend our time trying to perfect methods to make such distinctions. Furthermore, in the end such distinctions may be meaningless if even the "real" moderates hide from us what Islam is all about, not out of any deeply-felt sinister motive, but out of a humanly-understandable ignorance (especially among some second or third-generation Muslims in the West), or embarrassment, or filial piety. And finally, yesterday's "moderate" can overnight be transformed into today's fanatic -- or tomorrow's.

Shall we entrust our own safety to the dreamy consolations of the phrase "moderate Muslim" and the shapeshifting concept behind it that can be transformed into something else in a minute?

 

Last edited on Thu Mar 15th, 2007 01:33 am by

Corvus
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 08:25 am

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People "harp" on Roy for going on . . . and on . . . yet he only does so because CW continues to GO ON AND ON . . .

Jesus enough of the MUSLIM CRAP . . . we all get the fucking point CW . . .




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 Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 08:27 am

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 Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 08:28 am

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 12:33 pm

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Oh no, not Corvus whining and picking on a female again because the truth hoits his wittle ears and this highscholl bully-b*tch in a man's body can't listen to the truth for more than ten seconds without him getting distracted, nervous and sarcastic. Corvus, I say this as a moderator: if you don't stop posting off-topic to CW's posts just to be insulting, I am going to start editing your posts. Some others may think it's funny or permissible but it's just stupid, vindictive and unfair. This forum is not a shooting gallery for morons like you to get their sadistic kicks at a girl's expense with non-topical, blatantly-abusive posts. Maybe you should pick fights with your wife or one of your bosses at work, not CW, who is comfortably ( for you) someplace where you can escape normal consequences for your actions, you ignorant, disaffiliated *sshole! 

Forum rules state clearly that "no posting shall be done exclusively for the harrassment or insulting of another member", and that is what you're doing, like the grossly overwieight, neurotic, hopeless bi-polar twit that you are. I don't suppose that you want to hear that either, but too m*ther f*cking bad! You started it (again)!

GROW UP NATHAN. Life goes on within you and without you. Next time you do this type of thing to CW, I will delete your post. Enough is enough. If Roy won't stop your abusiveness, then I will. And why not take the liberal guilt that propels you though your pointless exsitence and shove it up your *ss where your head is already? Expressions of your own personal hostility to CW simply because you don't like the content of her posts will no longer be tolerated. Maybe you should go abuse the Lifeboat if you must abuse somebody to get your kicks.

                            YOU'RE DONE!!!

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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 02:11 pm

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Psycho Gizmo wrote:

Oh no, not Corvus whining and picking on a female again because the truth hoits his wittle ears and this highscholl bully-b*tch in a man's body can't listen to the truth for more than ten seconds without him getting distracted, nervous and sarcastic. Corvus, I say this as a moderator: if you don't stop posting off-topic to CW's posts just to be insulting, I am going to start editing your posts. Some others may think it's funny or permissible but it's just stupid, vindictive and unfair. This forum is not a shooting gallery for morons like you to get their sadistic kicks at a girl's expense with non-topical, blatantly-abusive posts. Maybe you should pick fights with your wife or one of your bosses at work, not CW, who is comfortably ( for you) someplace where you can escape normal consequences for your actions, you ignorant, disaffiliated *sshole! 

Forum rules state clearly that "no posting shall be done exclusively for the harrassment or insulting of another member", and that is what you're doing, like the grossly overwieight, neurotic, hopeless bi-polar twit that you are. I don't suppose that you want to hear that either, but too m*ther f*cking bad! You started it (again)!

GROW UP NATHAN. Life goes on within you and without you. Next time you do this type of thing to CW, I will delete your post. Enough is enough. If Roy won't stop your abusiveness, then I will. And why not take the liberal guilt that propels you though your pointless exsitence and shove it up your *ss where your head is already? Expressions of your own personal hostility to CW simply because you don't like the content of her posts will no longer be tolerated. Maybe you should go abuse the Lifeboat if you must abuse somebody to get your kicks.

                            YOU'RE DONE!!!






It is a good thing GJ doesn't post here or the flaming bandwidth between PG and GJ would bring down the internets. :D



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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 05:29 pm

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Corvus is just giving "signs of aversion", the very ones, PG, that you told me I should have paid attention to when I was too hard on Helgi.

What was particularly amazing to me was that you have been too hard yourself and I politely listened to your lecture on the phone, but I was still amazed at your inability to see that in yourself.

CW is beating a dead horse. We have all given mammoth signs of aversion, and you and CW have just sat there and ignored them.




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 Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 06:13 pm

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Why not learn more about our enemy?  In fact, it is very useful in surviving. Beating a dead horse?  We could say that about anyone who is very well learned in a certain topic.

The muslims are a dead horse?  Not yet, I am afraid.  There is much more work to do.

The truth brings out hostility in humans. 

 

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 04:32 am

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Last edited on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 04:34 am by Corvus



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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 04:40 am

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The truth brings out hostility in humans.

and reveals deep complexes in those who insist on presenting it . . .





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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 07:10 am

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Uh, oh!!. Psycho Gizmo is being punished folks. Yep! Your's truly has been summarily demoted by Roy for disloyalty and not being in awe of his great genius. Hah! No more "moderating powers" for poor PG - boo hoo!!! What a sad, sad unfunny pathetic joke. 

O.K. if this is going to be a forum for the posting of personal opinions about other posters because we don't like what they have to say, then I think the above posts from Roy and Corvus are pure, adolescent, defensive, egocentric B.S.! I think Roy and Corvus are acting like a couple of petty, nerdy little girl-hating jerks by constantly complaining and whining about her posts. How's that for a pertinent item, boys? Jesus.

Moderate that, ya' twits. Please know that neither of you jerks has any idea who or what I really am and it's appears that you never will. I've made a point of not telling either of you much of anything correct about my personal life, because something down deep inside told me not to trust either of you very much. 'Seems I was correct in that caution.  

 And Roy ol' chum, if that was your idea of being "polite" in that phone "conversation" you mentioned (which was mostly you ignoring and interrupting everything I tried to express),  then you truly are delusional. I will wish we had it on recording so that you could hear how crazy you sound when you get all worked up and start mumbling long disjointed, rambling paragraphs with no periods, and barking like a hyena. And I'm not the first to complain about that, so if you'd like to get personal, let's talk about who is or is not in touch with reality in that context, shall we?

Self-remember that... oh, and that was called "anger" it's one of the "emotions" that normal human beings experience when they feel they are being abused or mistreated. You may want to log a reference point for that for your future technical analysis, son. For when you and Corvus grow up some day and decide to join the Human Race instead of sitting in front of your computer terminals pretending that you know every goddamn thing and regarding the rest of us as lowly ignorant yokels who can't keep up with your brilliance.   

What a joke this Forum is becoming. A sad, unfunny joke. So, what's next? Is Jerome going to join up and start whacking everyone's knuckles with self-righetous cluck-clucking every time they displease Big Daddy Roy? What B.S. !

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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 07:41 am

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Please know that neither of you jerks has any idea who or what I really am and it's appears that you never will. I've made a point of not telling either of you much of anything correct about my personal life, because something down deep inside told me not to trust either of you very much. 'Seems I was correct in that caution.   "PG"


Ahh so the truth comes out . . . "PG", "Severian, "     " . . . is indeed no different than I, Corvus . . .

Takes one to know one, ehh Roy . . . ;)

I knew all along you were never giving any of "us" here any sort of truth about yourself and then you wonder why I am unwilling to stop playing the "Corvus" game ?

For all your big words and analysis, underneath it all your the most damaged of any of us.

Well I still find you entertaining, but after all, that's really what "all" of "this" was for you . . . a game . . .

You never stepped away from the board, did you PG . . . your projections are seriously, Funny. :D

And further more, attacking Roy . . . for displaying some effort, and placing trust in a online relationship with "you" is *weak sauce. (*That was for Phil)

I refuse to speak with Roy on the phone . . . because I only trust 1/2 of everything that transpires through the machine . . . but I give him credit from reaching out to touch someone.

 -Nathan

Last edited on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 07:52 am by Corvus



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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 08:57 am

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 pretending that you know every goddamn thing and regarding the rest of us as lowly ignorant yokels who can't keep up with your brilliance.   -PG


I like how cleverly divisive this game has become . . .

CW says it best . . .

The truth brings out hostility in humans.  -CW

:D



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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 09:31 am

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PG, you are right. I didn't listen politely. I objected to what you were saying about my treatment of Helgi. In any case, I did listen, though, but I still can't get how your treatment of Clemsy, Corvus, or several others wouldn't have been considered worse than mine by an objective standard.

Well, there it is. Nietzsche said that "Memory says yes. Pride says no. Memory yields." Only I was willing to re-remember the conversation. So, my pride has had to yield to your better memory.

Thanks. ;)



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 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 05:04 pm

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I refuse to speak with Roy on the phone . . . because I only trust 1/2 of everything that transpires through the machine . . . but I give him credit from reaching out to touch someone.


 

I once ended up speaking to Roy on the phone...it's no big deal Corvus. Like sex, you should try it once in your life ;)

It was pretty much like a read aloud program speaking out his [Roy] posts. But I have a loud voice and over the phone I can be a bit loud and strong of accent :)

He's a bit grounded in the dogma of his ideology, but fine for all that. :D You can feel the brain power eminate from his voice though, he knows a lot of stuff...

why the fock he is not teaching in some manner is a wonder to me (probably a reason, no one tells me anything here :P)

He's a nice bloke to chat to, but I think, after all this time communicating through this message board thingy we have here, has left us conditioned to this form of contact, so perhaps....to make this forum last (and given recent events here), phone calls are not the ideal way for us communicate :( 

p.s CW should stay posting though...she has an opinion and is consistent with, a trait she shares with Roy... PG likes her and understands what she is saying,  to him he is being decent to Cw.... this is not the Jung board and we CAN handle such differences of opinion, 

I talk too much don't I?


 

Last edited on Sat Mar 17th, 2007 05:08 pm by Nocturne



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when will all this end?

Roy
Quasi-Infallible Egocentric Tyrant


Joined: Mon Apr 4th, 2005
Location: Washington USA
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Mana: 
 Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 05:56 pm

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I taught in the LA Central Juvenile Hall and in other public schools. I taught ELS for more than a decade.

I can't get a teaching credential without spending tens of thousands of dollars and ending up in some school where I will be driven half-nuts.

I have a very big project I am working on. When it is near ready, I will let you all know.

Nocturne, the best place to learn the lessons I had to learn as I learned the "intellectual stuff" was to have to live as a person without any real importance in the world.

Social importance leads the person to believe in the mask of his personality, his persona, as a reality.

You become a "Pharisee" or a Noble Roman Piece of Shit. Or you become half-assed sentimentalized upper class white American.

I have plans for this site.



____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
Nocturne
Honored Fellow Grover


Joined: Wed Apr 6th, 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Mana: 
 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 09:56 am

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I have a very big project I am working on. When it is near ready, I will let you all know.

Nocturne, the best place to learn the lessons I had to learn as I learned the "intellectual stuff" was to have to live as a person without any real importance in the world.

Social importance leads the person to believe in the mask of his personality, his persona, as a reality.

You become a "Pharisee" or a Noble Roman Piece of Shit. Or you become half-assed sentimentalized upper class white American.

I have plans for this site.

 

A thought provoking post Roy. The social importance aspect, the curse of western society... but...everything has it's limits... I mean should we all live as bums for five years to 'get' the world?

It does not say much about Doctors(MD) though,,, they are treated like gods here in the UK, some of them are arrogant bastards and don't start me on consultants

She coined the phrase the ‘Great-I-Am’ to try to capture the perspective of the doctors and the ways in which they related to nurses, patients and others in the hospital setting. I will quote a series of excerpts from her book (Mackay, 1993) to build up a picture of her argument about how doctors think. For many of them, she believes, life in medical school and subsequently in a hospital sets them apart from other health care workers. I will then look at Mackay's argument in the light of the material on the audio clips and the experience of course testers.

Mackay calls attention to the image of junior doctors striding purposefully to the next patient, ‘the tails of their unbuttoned white coat flapping, stethoscope prominently dangling from one pocket’ (p. 63), a reflection, she says, of an attitude that ‘only I can deal with this’. She then develops this idea:


It is easy to see how junior doctors can see themselves as being the centre of everything. The doctor arrives, decisions are taken, the action begins. Nurses, perhaps cross and impatient about any delay in the doctor's arrival, will be critical of any failure to take a speedy decision. The doctor learns to act (and it is an act, in the beginning at least) quickly and decisively. The adopted persona of decisiveness becomes convincing, and the doctor rushes onto the wards, makes the necessary decision, and rushes off again, with smaller tasks perhaps left uncommunicated or undone.

(Mackay, 1993, p. 68)

 



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when will all this end?

Roy
Quasi-Infallible Egocentric Tyrant


Joined: Mon Apr 4th, 2005
Location: Washington USA
Posts: 4326
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Mana: 
 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 06:07 pm

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Nocturne,

I feel behind your comment, perhaps, some fear of being that pharisee bedcause you have a modicum of success in life. Believe me, you are not, and everyone who is a success is not a pharisee, either.

In any case, I am not a "bum"! Thank you! I did have a "bum-like" quality, a quality of having lost the capacity to work hard, but I burnt that out of me over the years. The "Fourth Way" begins at the level of a householder.

What Gurdjieff meant is that most of the time, if you can't get it together to arrange a household, you don't have the wherewithall to learn to self-remember, look at yourself objectively and eliminate your false personality as you experience conscience directly.

Even living as a bum, though, may be a necessary step in the evolution of someone's soul.

Great example of false personality from the doctor's point of view. What have you been reading and thinking about to have come upon such an example?



____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
*Phil*
Opinionated Interventionist


Joined: Thu Apr 21st, 2005
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 3591
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Mana: 
 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 02:19 pm

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Psycho Gizmo wrote:



.

Moderate that, ya' twits. Please know that neither of you jerks has any idea who or what I really am and it's appears that you never will. I've made a point of not telling either of you much of anything correct about my personal life, because something down deep inside told me not to trust either of you very much. 'Seems I was correct in that caution.  

  !


PG must feel pretty embarrased to reread this post of his. Nobody expected to "know you",  heck how well does anyone really know their next-door neighbor? No worries PG we all  embarrass ourselves from time-to-time.   

I think CW should be unbanned or at least a vote taken because she has been a big contributor here and has no problem hanging out with boyz!  In fact, because there so much to say about the topic of Islam, I feel we should create a new forum in the Grove just for information and discussion about it -  "Islam and the West" or some title like that.   CW can consult with Roy about what to name the forum title.



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Galactic Signature: Blue Self-Existing Monkey
Corvus
Honored Fellow Grover


Joined: Tue Apr 5th, 2005
Location: Wisconsin USA
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Mana: 
 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 11:32 pm

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I don't think CW should have been ban . . .

HOWEVER . . . I did like the original notion that this would be a phallic forum. :D

CW actually acts much like a man . . . so perhaps s'he should be welcome here ?

Sorry I just had to say that. 

Ban Corvus and everything would be fine.:?

If CW gets a forum . . . than I want one also . . . it shall be called, The Life Game.

:dude:

Phil is acting pretty damn balanced these days . . . and I have not heard much mention of Gold . . . perhaps Roy should take his advice ?

Last edited on Mon Mar 19th, 2007 11:34 pm by Corvus



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"In a person (not Corvus) who is open to experience each stimulus is freely relayed through the nervous system, without being distorted by any process of defensiveness." -C. Rogers

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