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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Fri Aug 4th, 2006 06:41 pm |
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For some time now, I have noticed that there is in my fellow citizens, often a confusion in their own minds as demonstrated by their verbal behavior, between normal anger and hatred.
I've noticed that in many, the terms are totally interchangeable. Not for me. In fact, if there is one thing that I'd say Christianity and some other religions teach is how to effectively neutralize hatred as a poisonous, disruptive force in one's life.
Classic Woman mentioned that despite her loved-ones sufferings at the hands of the Japanese in WWII, she has found a way to reconcile her emotions to the degree that she does not hate anyone nor their relative, who may have been directly responsible for the act.
I'll hold my own thoughts or observations for now and solicit input from others. Does anyone have thoughts or feelings about anger v. hatred?
CW is welcome to veer as far "off topic" as she likes in this thread, because I am the originator and I say it's perfectly O.K.!
Last edited on Fri Aug 4th, 2006 07:01 pm by
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Helgi
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Posted: Fri Aug 4th, 2006 07:36 pm |
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Anger and Hatred are natural feelings, the negative aspect to them is when they are not expressed and are instead supressed within in a way that they that one cannot reconcile them.
____________________
"We have a lady who is most high and mighty, high she is and holy, nobles love her for this. She is called Freo, well does she direct them, Freo, our lady, we give to her Friday." -From the poem 'Brut', by the 13C poet Layamon
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 12:05 am |
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Well, my father was hung naked in the hot sun for 48 hours with wires by his neck, wrists and ankles for stealing a chicken (he was so hungry). He was also on a hell ship with I think it was 1200 internees. It was to transport the prisoners from the Molukken Islands in Indonesia to Hokaido Japan. The Japanese constantly transferred people from one camp to antoher to avoid plots to escape or retaliate agains the Japs. Men starved to death, yellow fever, beri beri and malnutrition, and suicide took all but 250 men's lives on that journey. My father witnessed mass murder of prisoners. The Japanese would line hundreds of men up at a time, force them to dig their own graves, behead them right there at the grave and kick their bodies into the ground witht their heads. My father was one of the lucky ones who only had to watch.
Until the day my father died he had open wounds on his back from all the whip marks he recieved. A few never healed.
Mom was a quiet and sneaky one. She was impriosned in Banju Biru camp on the island of Java with 5,000 other Dutch and British women. Banju Biru was the most horrid women's camp -- notorious for daily beatings of women.. She witnessed Japanese soldiers tossing women's newborn babies up in the air and the Japs using Samurai swords to play games to see who could peirce and murder the baby. She also witnesses Japanese soldiers cutting pregnant women's stomach's open. She also witnessed the Comfort Women (sex slaves) trade and bordellos although my mother had shaved her head bald so as not to be attractive enough to be used as one. My mother has always been very quiet and a tiny woman so she was able to stay in the shadows. However, she was a quiet leader of a group of other women and had a network of spies watching every move the Japanese soldiers made which helped her to be 10 steps ahead of them. It also was the key to surviving. She was 70 lbs when she finally was released. She could not hear out of one ear from the daily beatings with bamboo sticks on her ears. She was almost blind in one eye and her top teeth had all fallen out .
Mom and Dad never pyscially healed. The aftermath of several years of abusive made them age fast and they had permanent disabilities from these years. Psychologically it made them strong. And it made them very spiritual. They began to read books by Professor Swedenborg and it was uplifting for them.
When I was 12 I asked my mom and dad if they hated the Japanese. They admonished me and told me I was never allowed to hate. They freed me from hate. They did tell me about the political atmosphere right before they were occupied by the Japanese and it is exactly the same political atmosphere that is here now. Mom and Dad told me that the Japanese soldiers were just taking orders, they were brainwashed and not to hold them responsible for the evil acts they committed. They said they did not want hate to control their lives, but they also said to be smart and know how to watch my enemy, but not to hate them.
I used to spend my teen age years, some nights crying myself to sleep and asking God why my parents had to go through this --- what had they ever done to deserve this? And why me and my sisters had to live so poor because mom and dad were in the wrong place at the wrong time time. And it destroyed their lives. My father was a multi millionaire in Indonesia and my mother was a socialite. Here we were in the US, father unable to find suitable employment and having small heart attacks.
The answer was, life is laughing at us. Just when we think we have it all under control, we don't. We are our own worst enemies. I also knew at that moment, that it would be me that had to do something about it, because no one else would. Even though I didn't hate the Japanese, the long term effects were evident on my parents. I had to do something about it and I was determined. And I did.
Years later, out of the blue I met some Chinese people from Nanking, they asked me to do public speaking engagements with them and some other International Politcal Action committees who are trying to sue the Japanese Government for their war crimes. I met several retired and aging Japanese soldiers who had committed horrible atrocities. They were speaking on behalf of people like my parents and they were there to repent and ask forgiveness. I have photos of me with them. I was so stunned that they learned I was the daughter of an internee and approached me with tears in their eyes asking me to forgive them. I told them that I wasn't there and it didn't happen to me and I had no ill feelilngs towards them, and that my parents had forgiven them a long time ago. Meeting these men was a very profound and humbling experience for me in my life, I will never forget it.
I was only there, not for revenge against them, but to get some international recognition for my parents suffering. Japan never took responsiblity. After all, it was the the Japanese Imperial Government under Emporer Hirohito that did this.
In 1997, I was doing public speaking engagements and I ran into some government officials from the Netherlands. They told me that the Dutch government was finally giving a pension to the internees who had camp-related illnesses. My dad had been a leader in a political action group in the Netherlands working towards this very goal. We were deported from Holland because back then, my Dad was considered a trouble maker just for daring to ask the Dutch Government for financial assistance to help ex internees rebuild their lives. The media destroyed my father for standing up for his beleifs.
I jumped on an airplane and went to the Pension en Uitkeeringsraad in De Hague. I met with a social worker, went through a year of interviews with my mom and her doctors. Today, she is receiving a big pension for her suffering. And they Dutch governemtn gives it to the Jews too. Anyone who was interned in World War II concentration camps who has permanent medical problems is eligable. Mom is ok today. Finally. At the age of 83. Took a long time, but she is finally taken care of. Dad passed away not knowing what I have done. I miss him. But I finished his work for him. Now I am at peace for my Mom and Dad and I don't regret a thing. I am glad I was born to these special parents, I would not have wanted it any other way.
And now we have a new enemy. Oh the lessons learned from Mom and Dad. Priceless.
Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 12:39 am by
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 01:04 am |
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Psycho Gizmo wrote: For some time now, I have noticed that there is in my fellow citizens, often a confusion in their own minds as demonstrated by their verbal behavior, between normal anger and hatred.
I've noticed that in many, the terms are totally interchangeable. Not for me. In fact, if there is one thing that I'd say Christianity and some other religions teach is how to effectively neutralize hatred as a poisonous, disruptive force in one's life.
Classic Woman mentioned that despite her loved-ones sufferings at the hands of the Japanese in WWII, she has found a way to reconcile her emotions to the degree that she does not hate anyone nor their relative, who may have been directly responsible for the act.
I'll hold my own thoughts or observations for now and solicit input from others. Does anyone have thoughts or feelings about anger v. hatred?
CW is welcome to veer as far "off topic" as she likes in this thread, because I am the originator and I say it's perfectly O.K.!
Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that neutralizes hate. That comes from Christianity. You should experience the black heart of Muslims.
Creepy.
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*Phil*
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 01:05 am |
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That is quite a personal story CW. Thank you for sharing it with us. It certainly got me to thinking about hate, anger, and the spiritual aspects of that.
Can we say that at the root of hate is fear, but anger is a step towards taking personal responsibility?
Like this guy, for example, isn't feeling hate he is angry! He is going to fight!
Hate is like a festering wound in need of healing. Anger can be a vector to action.
ಠ_ಠ
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Pecca fortiter, sed fortius fide et gaude in Christo!
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 02:02 am |
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Thank you Phil. Yes, anger will save us. Moderation will subdue us. After it is all over, we can talk again.
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Roy
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 02:05 am |
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Of course Yours Truly here would have to chime in on this great discussion.
Anger is an energizing emotion. If you have been truly psychically/physically damaged, then anger is there to prepare you for combat. It is a warning to others not to fuck with you.
Hate, though, would seem to be the product of continued attacks, denial of love, denial of your self as valid.
Those behaviors directed at us would engeder hate. If you hated someone, would you not feel anger at seeing them? Or loathing...or what?
Most amazing combination of anger and I would guess hate: the young black woman at the sentencing hearing in Dahmer's trial- the one that went ballistic on him ]because of the suffering he had caused her mother!
I believe you can forgive, but I know I have had to do a lot of primal therapy about a lot of anger, years of expressing it in therapy.
That anger exorcised the introjected demons I was forced to let in, which robbed me of much of my self.
Anger lets the body in. The body is not an object, but the South Pole of the Self, while the North Pole, as it were, is the mind. Our spirit is that individual mind-body conjuntion, our soul in motion, if you ask me.
Best book about healing and anger is Alexander Lowen's Depression and the Body.
Classic Woman, you are amazing. Great thread. Amazing life experience as the child of survivors of concentration camps.
Roy
Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 02:07 am by Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Helgi
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 02:14 am |
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Let me hate
As black prevails
As blood invades
As love congeals
Let me hate
- Novembre, "let me hate"
____________________
"We have a lady who is most high and mighty, high she is and holy, nobles love her for this. She is called Freo, well does she direct them, Freo, our lady, we give to her Friday." -From the poem 'Brut', by the 13C poet Layamon
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 02:28 am |
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Roy wrote: Of course Yours Truly here would have to chime in on this great discussion.
Anger is an energizing emotion. If you have been truly psychically/physically damaged, then anger is there to prepare you for combat. It is a warning to others not to fuck with you.
Hate, though, would seem to be the product of continued attacks, denial of love, denial of your self as valid.
Those behaviors directed at us would engeder hate. If you hated someone, would you not feel anger at seeing them? Or loathing...or what?
Most amazing combination of anger and I would guess hate: the young black woman at the sentencing hearing in Dahmer's trial- the one that went ballistic on him ]because of the suffering he had caused her mother!
I believe you can forgive, but I know I have had to do a lot of primal therapy about a lot of anger, years of expressing it in therapy.
That anger exorcised the introjected demons I was forced to let in, which robbed me of much of my self.
Anger lets the body in. The body is not an object, but the South Pole of the Self, while the North Pole, as it were, is the mind. Our spirit is that individual mind-body conjuntion, our soul in motion, if you ask me.
Best book about healing and anger is Alexander Lowen's Depression and the Body.
Classic Woman, you are amazing. Great thread. Amazing life experience as the child of survivors of concentration camps.
Roy
I am not amazing sweetie. My parents are. They are my teachers. It is nothing I had inside of me from birth.
I had extremely spiritual and civilized parents. I am so fortunate.
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Corvus
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 04:56 am |
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My Wave - Sound Garden Take, if you want a slice
If you want a piece
If it feels alright
Break, if you like the sound
If it gets you up
If it brings you down
Share, if it makes you sleep
If it sets you free
If it helps you breathe
Don't come over here
And piss on my gate
Save it just keep it
Off my wave
Cry, if you want to cry
If it helps you see
If it clears your eyes
Hate, if you want to hate
If it keeps you safe
If it makes you brave
Pray, if you want to pray
If you like to kneel
If you like to lay
Don't come over here
And piss on my gate
Save it just keep it
Off my wave
Keep it off my wave
Keep it off my wave
Keep it off my wave
My wave
PG's inspiration . . .
I don't think there is really a organic chemical difference between hate and anger . . . we humans like to complicate emotions more than they need to be.
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"In a person (not Corvus) who is open to experience each stimulus is freely relayed through the nervous system, without being distorted by any process of defensiveness." -C. Rogers
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Helgi
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 06:15 am |
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Agreed Corv'
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"We have a lady who is most high and mighty, high she is and holy, nobles love her for this. She is called Freo, well does she direct them, Freo, our lady, we give to her Friday." -From the poem 'Brut', by the 13C poet Layamon
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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 04:41 pm |
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hate
n : a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action [syn: hatred] [ant: love] v : dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians" [syn: detest] [ant: love]
anger
n 1: a strong emotion; a feeling that is oriented toward some real or supposed grievance [syn: choler, ire] 2: the state of being angry [syn: angriness] 3: belligerence aroused by a real or supposed wrong (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: wrath, ire, ira] v 1: make angry; "The news angered him" 2: become angry; "He angers easily" [syn: see red]
In a nutshell, anger is merely a natural internal emotion that results from some conflict between desire and actuality. Anger is by definition, neither good nor bad in itself but only manifests morality in how it is externally expressed.
Isn't hatred an attitude? Isn't it an active, dynamic state of disposition towards something or someone? In a nutshell, isn't hate the active attitude of a desire and intention to see harm or loss come to the object?
If you hate someone, you wish to see or cause harm to come to them. One may be angry with someone without hating them. But one can't hate someone without being angry with them.
If one is angry with another, one may simply want them to stop doing something or to change a behavior that creates a conflict. Anger over disappointment (frustration) implies that one wants further relationship.
I've been told, and I believe, that the opposite of love is not anger, it's indifference. Ignoring someone is a way of saying, "I don't care if you are destroyed -I have no empathy for you. You are as insignificant to me as an inanimate object.I wish to terminate the relationship."
If one hates their children, they may simply neglect them until they die - hateful mission accomplished. This is passive-aggressive anger expressed as covert hatred. No expression of direct anger is presented to the object to request or to motivate correction. It's like saying, "I will behave as if you do not or should not exist"! More damage is done to largely innocent people by passive aggressive-anger than by overt attacking. By withholding sympathy, one can injure or impair others very effectively, (even drive them to suicide) without being held accountable for so much as spitting on the sidewalk. Withholding sympathy is surely the most common form of hatefulness.
It was certainly the most common form of hatefulness that I observed on the old Jung Page Forum. The one they call ,Pandora" was probably the master of withholding sympathy. Some sadistic people establish relationships with people simply in order to withhold sympathy from them.
It seems to me that the gift of compassion (the spirit of Jesus Christ, etc.) is that one may separate hatred of a thing from hatred of a person. For those who believe that a person and their beliefs are synonymous, if one hates another's beliefs, they must hate the person who holds the detested views. I note that many are hesitant to condemn people wholesale for their beliefs, while others insist that a flawed belief automatically indicates flawed character.
I disagree with the latter view. One may hold idiotic opinions while behaving morally in their day-today existence. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with me about my opinions because I don't require everyone to agree with me before I bestow the title of "decent human being" upon them. One must weigh the whole of the personality when assessing character.
That's why I often ask personal questions of persons with whom I am debating. Not to embarrass or distract them, but to get a more clear picture of who they are in addition to what they believe. The reason I do that is because I've learned that although beliefs( and inner emotions) can change readily and drastically moment-to-moment, a person's character( the attitudes that they choose in relating to others) do not tend to change much over the course of a lifetime.
That's why I believe that Pandora and some other misbehavers from the Old Forum were so aggressive and seemingly full of a desire to harm other's feelings and sensibilities with their harsh, intolerant rhetoric. Those of us who fear and loathe people most are always more-inclined towards hatred of others as they are, than acceptance of others as they are. We see in others, the parts of ourselves that we may not have integrated nor resolved internally, or that are incompatible with our other (fragmented) personality components.
By attacking and driving away those who represent those scary unresolved internal conflicts (with aggressiveness), fearful people feel that they are removing a severe threat to their own stability and sanity. That is actually only partly true. One who drives away the Truth in order to feel comfortable, preserves stability at a higher cost, their sanity and sacrificing the healthy habit of accepting reality without disguise, distortion or excuse.
I note also that people often get confused about who they are angry with. Often people are naturally angry, but with nobody in particular as the object. The anger of frustration (ex. : an economically disadvantaged person works hard everyday and yet never seems to get ahead) can be projected easily onto those who are not directly at fault. Especially for people of lower-than-average intellect, assigning appropriate cause and blame for their personal problems is often very difficult. There is a tendency in people of low intellect to assign guilt by proximity.
I once had a rather dull-witted co-worker who regularly projected blame for her frustrated anger onto whoever was in the vicinity. Her assumption was that if she became angry or unhappy, her feelings were automatically the fault of whoever else was in proximity to or directly involved.
A lot of psychotic (irrational) anger at people is caused by this phenomenon. Some people cannot recognise the difference between cause and effect, nor the anger of frustration (which has no individual object as it's focus) from the righteous anger of being attacked overtly. There are apparently millions of near-morons walking around who figure that if you are the only one in the room when they get mad, then you are surely to blame for their rage.
Gandalf : (To Bilbo as they discuss him voluntarily giving away his precious Ring) There's no need to get angry.
Blibo : (Turning on his friend, becomes enraged as the evil Ring amplifies his feelings of resentment and frustration) WELL, IF I'M ANGRY IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!
Attachment: Dune 2paul1a.jpg (Downloaded 93 times) Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:43 pm by
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Roy
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:18 pm |
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Hate is a feeling that does not necessarily mean you go around in a state of affect called "hate".
Anger, though, is a feeling, but it is an affect as well. When you are calm, you have to say that something or other makes you angry. That is because at that moment you are not angry.
On the other hand, you can sit somewhere calmly having a drink and talk about "what you hate" without any anger or affect at that time. And you will feel that hate at the moment.
Then the moment comes when you have to express your hatred as your feeling spills over into affect. You stand up and declare with force, "I hate ____".
Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:21 pm by Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:27 pm |
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For those unfamiliar with the psychological lexicon :
affect (a'-fect)
n : the conscious subjective aspect of feeling or emotion
I tried to draw a clear distinction between an internallyu experienced affect, and the active pusuit of a course of action or strategy dsigned to injure or cause loss.
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Roy
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:29 pm |
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For some time now, I have noticed that there is in my fellow citizens, often a confusion in their own minds as demonstrated by their verbal behavior, between normal anger and hatred.
But your real question is that one, above. I have to go to work, so this will longer response to your original question will have to wait.
I would say quickly that you were right, that today people indulged their passions, and that means that they don't reflect with any objectivity about their situation.
So, their anger becomes out of control in response to a hatred based on a misunderstanding, a projection, an incapacity to understand anything at all of the perspective of your apparent opponent, a refusal to reason and an idealization of their own position with a parallel demonization of their opponent's position.
(Ah! Caveat! Any idealization of our own position will put us in the situation of Dali's Virgin as the unconscious negative aspect, what will amount to a demonization of our position comes into play. This is the source of the tyranny of the feminine, political correctness, communism, liberal Christianity and a host of other "evils".)
And a word for Corvus: not to demonize your opponent doesn't mean not recognizing their demonic aspect.
It means not concluding that everything that they say or do, think or believe is 100% wrong.
Obviously someone like Hitler or Stalin is demonic, possessed by evil and is evil.
But everything that they did or said wasn't evil. So, we have to debate and evaluate what they did even though we are quite correct in deeming them evil and demonic.
This is a major lesson and probably should be its own thread, but let's continue it here, if anyone wants to further develop this point.
Roy
Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 05:40 pm by Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2006 09:07 pm |
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Roy said: It means not concluding that everything that they say or do,think or believe is 100% wrong.
You are so right Roy!
Muslims are excellent with the following:
1. Excellent food
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabouli
2. Excellent Bellydancers
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/137277/belly_dance/
3. Excellent Music - Turn up the speakers!! This is great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuIf56vllI
4. Camels with air conditioning
http://www.worth1000.com/cache/contest/contestcache.asp?contest_id=10507&display=photoshop#entries
I think we should take their stuff like they did to us, and then kick them out and claim it as our own inventions and discoveries
What else does the world need?
Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2006 09:10 pm by
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*Phil*
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Posted: Mon Aug 7th, 2006 12:16 am |
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That Bellydancer, she is hawt! My pants are on fire!!
But this is not Islamic. Pre-Islamic Arabic right?
I want to be a mighty Sultan in my next life.
____________________
Pecca fortiter, sed fortius fide et gaude in Christo!
Galactic Signature: Blue Self-Existing Monkey
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Roy
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Posted: Mon Aug 7th, 2006 01:44 am |
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Amazing posting, CW! Your knowledge is awesome.
What comes to mind is an old State Dep't saying about the Russians: "You can take the communist out of the Russian, but you can't take the Russian out of the communist".
So, ethnic identity is realer than political/ideological identity. And I pray the same is true for the Arabs, namely that : "You can take the Muslim out of the Arab, but you can't take the Arab out of the Muslim".
It seems to me that the Muslim religion has given certain fanatics a rationalization for behavior that is not acceptable.
Yes, CW, you are right. Christian atrocities are the result of us not living up to Christ's teaching, whereas I am now inclined to agree with you that Mohammed's teachings itself are the problem.
Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Classic Woman
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Posted: Mon Aug 7th, 2006 02:17 am |
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Roy wrote: Amazing posting, CW! Your knowledge is awesome.
What comes to mind is an old State Dep't saying about the Russians: "You can take the communist out of the Russian, but you can't take the Russian out of the communist".
So, ethnic identity is realer than political/ideological identity. And I pray the same is true for the Arabs, namely that : "You can take the Muslim out of the Arab, but you can't take the Arab out of the Muslim".
It seems to me that the Muslim religion has given certain fanatics a rationalization for behavior that is not acceptable.
Yes, CW, you are right. Christian atrocities are the result of us not living up to Christ's teaching, whereas I am now inclined to agree with you that Mohammed's teachings itself are the problem.
Roy
Please don't ever forget about the Arab Christians. They are our brothers im Christ and some of the nicest people. We can get along with them because our foundations and spirit are the same. They have just been stuck in the 7th century with their muslim oppressors.
If you want to know which Arab is a Muslim or Christian, please act stupid and ask the Arab to tell you about Islam. Pretend you know nothing. If he speaks nicely of Muhamed and Islam, he is a Muslim and your arch enemy. If he speaks about Muhamed like he was an filthy totalitarian dicator and murderous butcher, that would be an Arab Christian and your staunch friend and ally.
It also relinguishes any racism guilt you may be struggling with. It is not Arabs I don't like, it is Islam and whoever is a carrier be it white, black, vietnamese, chinese, or Arab.
The other important thing to me is not the violent muslims (mujahjadeen). It is Quiet Islam that creeps up behind us as I posted earlier the 20 point plan for Islam to take over the US.
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Helgi
Honored Fellow Grover
| Joined: | Tue Apr 5th, 2005 |
| Location: | Washington USA |
| Posts: | 545 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 7th, 2006 03:58 am |
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Stop with the media linkups.
Last edited on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 04:00 am by Helgi
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"We have a lady who is most high and mighty, high she is and holy, nobles love her for this. She is called Freo, well does she direct them, Freo, our lady, we give to her Friday." -From the poem 'Brut', by the 13C poet Layamon
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