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Johnny
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Posted: Wed Apr 20th, 2005 02:36 pm |
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BowOfTime wrote: What is it you ultimately seek to serve: your ego, or (as a Christian might define it) the Holy Spirit? Again at this point, attempting to identify THE SOURCE OF PASSION could be helpful...
You seem to describe passion as though it were a person to serve, BowOfTime...whereas I have been understanding passion to be a program, a routine that I am compelled to execute despite my protests (intellectual or otherwise). So when we are talking about thinking, we're talking about it in different ways.
In this context, you offer:
BowOfTime wrote: ...your guilt results from being fixated on the need for an acquittal... The problem regarding our guilt/suffering in life is NOT a result of thinking. If that were so, then I should be currently suffering; since I'm actively thinking at this moment - and yet there exists no such problem. Thinking is not the source of pain, it's the context in which negative emotions arise. The source of our suffering/guilt, is the WAY we are thinking. Therefore, the resolution to suffering/guilt, is by appropriately altering our WAY of thinking...
I'm not sure I am seeing "acquittal" in any way but to express deep honor for my grandmother artistically. The guilt/suffering I feel is only one part of the rainbow of experiences I have when I reflect upon her. There is also joy, laughter, peace, and warmth. But I've been sharing my experiences here with respect to Iron John, and we're still at the stealing-the-key-stage of the journey and sharing personal experiences that allow us to relate to this part meaningfully. My "goal" here is really to cover/discover a deep understanding of and empathy for the father-son relationship...that's something I'd very much like to achieve through this dialogue.
But back to current issues, to think that there is or isn't a problem, or to alter one's thinking, is easy enough. It is good to know that you experience no problems in actively thinking at this moment, but is it because no problems truly exist for you right now or because you've only used your thinking to rationalize a diversion or illusion to push the problems away? How does one apprehend the difference when thinking can be controlled so expertly?
PS No offense taken BowOfTime for your thoughts and ideas...I'm having a blast!Last edited on Wed Apr 20th, 2005 02:38 pm by
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 10:42 am |
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Johnny it seems you might have misread my post in one respect, so I'll clear that up first. You quoted me as stating:
...your guilt results from being fixated on the need for an acquittal...
The only quote by me structure like that states:
My point isn't that your guilt results from being fixated on the need for an acquittal.
Note the first part of my full comment in bold. If I'm reading your post correctly, your use of my comment represents the opposite of what I was attempting to express. Possibly it wasn't as clear as I perceived it to be.
Johnny stated:
You seem to describe passion as though it were a person to serve, BowOfTime...whereas I have been understanding passion to be a program, a routine that I am compelled to execute despite my protests (intellectual or otherwise). So when we are talking about thinking, we're talking about it in different ways.
I believe our views regarding the activity of thinking is the same. The issue seems to be our different interpretations regarding the source of passion. Note however, I believe the point your making here about passion is very important in the context of this discussion. For the record, I - personally - wouldn't personify passion, just as I try avoiding the personification of God. However, the comment where you perceive me to be describing passion as a person, has a type of validity.
When you refer to your perception of passion as a program or routine, it expresses a non-personal quality. As though passion is some mechanistic function innately woven into our psyche, consisting of governing parameters which we are subject to, and sometimes in conflict with. In that context, passion/bliss GREATLY lacks the complexity and depth it otherwise has. Resulting from that perspective, one might think it's possible to eventually understand, and perhaps even control their passion/bliss.
As you suggest, my view of passion could, in a sense, be seen as another person living within us. Passion/bliss is much like a conscious entity; in possession of its own will and interest. However, from my experience passion/bliss is INFINITELY more complex than any person could ever hope to be - I have no doubt. Now for many people (especially those whose heads are not aflame), their passion/bliss tends to be a gracious resident. For the most part it allows these people to believe their in control; while in truth, it's actually passion/bliss running the show. Few people ever seem conscious enough to recognize the reality of this. A problem they face however, is the inability to recognize that passion/bliss will at times trick and manipulate them. Thus in that spirit, it could easily motivate a situation where one leaves home just prier to the death of someone close - fully aware of this future development, and how it will serve to create conflict in the person who left.
As for me, even though passion/bliss seems sadistic at times, I trust it absolutely. I believe its central interest is the benefit of my soul. For me, this is a symbolic value of Christ on the cross. I wouldn't find it at all surprising if the motivating factor behind that action, was a responsive adherence to PASSION. Perhaps this relates to the way some regard it as, the PASSION of the Christ. Furthermore, if this is so, I wonder if Jesus felt GUILTY regarding the pain his PASSION brought his mother?
Johnny stated:
But I've been sharing my experiences here with respect to Iron John, and we're still at the stealing-the-key-stage of the journey and sharing personal experiences that allow us to relate to this part meaningfully. My "goal" here is really to cover/discover a deep understanding of and empathy for the father-son relationship...that's something I'd very much like to achieve through this dialogue.
That's an interesting comment Johnny... I find myself wondering if it's possible to venture further on the journey prier to obtaining ones key. I'd venture to say that without the key, a person will be incapable of locating their father - as it's portrayed in the mythic sense. This is one of the reasons - in my opinion - western culture is currently stuck. We have far too many males making important decisions, while their mommys rule the roost. If a man in search of the father has to look back seeking approval from his mother, then he'll be continually lead astray by her response. Don't forget, after leaving Ithaca in search of his father, the mother of Telemachus was yet aware he had gone.
Johnny stated:
But back to current issues, to think that there is or isn't a problem, or to alter one's thinking, is easy enough. It is good to know that you experience no problems in actively thinking at this moment, but is it because no problems truly exist for you right now or because you've only used your thinking to rationalize a diversion or illusion to push the problems away? How does one apprehend the difference when thinking can be controlled so expertly?
I'll say this Johnny, if the average person were to suddenly find their self in my current situation, they'd probably have a breakdown in little more than a week. In respect to this current situation, it's possibly THE MOST difficult point for me in the past 9 years. There's hardly a moment in the day I'm not confronted by this reality, which will very soon development into a profoundly uncertain state; with an even more uncertain and insecure future. And yet, I experience no pain - which in my opinion, is a testament to what I'm expressing here, and have spent so long searching to understand.
There exists no mental diversion or illusion regarding this matter. I fully understand the scope of the situation, and made a conscious choice to help it develop more fully into this current state. I could tell by the way things were developing, that was exactly what needed to be done at this point - even though it's exactly the opposite of what I desire, and would prefer most to avoid. The emotional pain we experience does not result from the conditions in our life - this is a secondary factor we perceive to be primary. Our pain simply results from the way we think about the conditions. Thus, as one comes to understand that process, it then takes a great deal to produce emotionally negativity (if it ever occurs at all). Likewise, such a person is IMMENSELY resistant to fear - if that as well ever even develops.
Actually, I'm EXTREMELY interested to see what happens next. These current sacrifices are PROFOUND, so if what has occurred in the past holds true for the future, there exists then a potential for something phenomenally fantastic. Just as possible however, it could result in something phenomenally disappointing. I anticipate that most likely both will be encountered. This simply represents the true sense of an adventure - and therefore, a reason why so few are ever willing to embrace it. Like that quote I sighted previously regarding the man whose head is on fire seeks a pond... no matter what the cost, I have to KNOW!!!!!!
BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 08:24 pm |
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First of all, BowOfTime, thanks for the clarifications and repairs to my misunderstandings!
BowOfTime wrote:
As for me, even though passion/bliss seems sadistic at times, I trust it absolutely. I believe its central interest is the benefit of my soul. For me, this is a symbolic value of Christ on the cross. I wouldn't find it at all surprising if the motivating factor behind that action, was a responsive adherence to PASSION. Perhaps this relates to the way some regard it as, the PASSION of the Christ. Furthermore, if this is so, I wonder if Jesus felt GUILTY regarding the pain his PASSION brought his mother?...
To be honest, I have no idea what passion truly is. I still want to describe it as a possession, or a computer program...but even that doesn't suffice for its association with things society considers in a negative light for the loss of its authority over one's behavior. But I think your words above are very important.
I'm tempted to speculate that if you have not doubted your passion/bliss at some point in your life then there is still some road left for you to travel, but I really don't know your circumstances. I really need to reflect on that speculation for myself and my own passion/bliss. And yes, if Jesus was at all human and loved his mother, I think he would have felt guilt for his complicity in his mother's pain somewhere.
The word "steal" would not be used with respect to the key were there no crime in taking the key. This word recognizes a social context in which the key has been procured. Otherwise, the boy would have no driver to flee the "crime scene".
Or to put it simply, we are not alone.
I find myself wondering if it's possible to venture further on the journey prier to obtaining ones key. I'd venture to say that without the key, a person will be incapable of locating their father - as it's portrayed in the mythic sense. This is one of the reasons - in my opinion - western culture is currently stuck. We have far too many males making important decisions, while their mommys rule the roost. If a man in search of the father has to look back seeking approval from his mother, then he'll be continually lead astray by her response....
With respect to Iron John as a blueprint for growth and maturation of the soul, I think you're making a great point! It's very, very important that we, as men, not just pay lip service to personal responsibility and duty...but embrace it and live it.
However, I still think we're moving too far ahead too fast to rationalize the boy's theft of the key at this point and wash our hands clean. The journey, to my mind, has still just begun.
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Mon Apr 25th, 2005 10:59 am |
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Johnny stated:
I'm tempted to speculate that if you have not doubted your passion/bliss at some point in your life then there is still some road left for you to travel, but I really don't know your circumstances. I really need to reflect on that speculation for myself and my own passion/bliss. And yes, if Jesus was at all human and loved his mother, I think he would have felt guilt for his complicity in his mother's pain somewhere.
It was stated that I trust my passion/bliss absolutely. That comment was in the present tense. I recall making no such definitive reference regarding passion/bliss in the past. Sorry if I wasn't more clear in that respect. So you know, my effort here isn't to tell anyone WHAT passion is. However, I could be guilty of pushing people to ask such questions.
Actually there's an interesting story associated with me that began at birth. You see, upon emerging from, you know where, I was sleeping. Something some people might consider an amazing thing in respect to child birth. The doctor spanked me (as they normally did back then), and apparently that wasn't sufficient. In fact at that time, it seems he wasn't even aware I was sleeping (this was all captured on film). Well, it was many years later, I'd discovered Joseph Campbell in college, and ventured west under the mantra, follow your bliss - actually at the time, I told people my reason for going was a submission to bliss ( = passion ). At the time I couldn't have gone much in-depth regarding the nature of bliss, nor did I grasp the deeper relevance of what Campbell was saying; but, fortunately I never had much trouble identifying passion ( = bliss ). So at that juncture living amidst the mountains in Colorado, something even more strange began. I first recall noticing it after reading a book titled, The Inner Game of Tennis. It was upon applying some of its ideas to teaching and playing golf, that something noticeably peculiar began. Perhaps the best way to describe this relates to the start of ones day in bed when an alarm goes off. You see, around that point a bit later near the end of 95, it was just like that: AN ALARM WENT OFF. And you know what, up to that point since birth, not one doctor over all those years ever had the ability to correctly diagnose my problem; nor were any of them ever able to prescribed the appropriate medication to correct my sleeping disorder. Instead, I corrected the problem on my own by following passion/bliss. And you know something else, I've not sleep a wink since - to my good fortune of course.
As for my question regarding Mary's pain caused by her son's passion, I was rather specific. You responded to that question in a general context regarding the possibility of whether Jesus EVER felt guilt. That was not what my question asked. I get the sense your comment attempts to suggest he would have felt guilt over the pain his potential PASSION for the cross caused his mother. If that's your response, then I'm compelled to disagree. In fact, I think there's something in the Bible which gives a better understanding on this matter. It's in Matthew 12:46-50, when Mary is seeking to speak with her son:
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his Disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my FATHER which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
To me this seems like a man in possession of his key. I can't imagine him feeling guilty for the pain any passion that lead to the cross caused his mother. A grand example for us all - if any such as he, do truly seek the FATHER.
Johnny stated:
The word "steal" would not be used with respect to the key were there no crime in taking the key. This word recognizes a social context in which the key has been procured. Otherwise, the boy would have no driver to flee the "crime scene".
I'm not sure if I'm getting your point here... The reason a person has to STEAL the key, is because his mother will not otherwise give it to him. That is her role, to keep the key, and to keep you from it. Just as it's the role of anyone who seeks identification with the father, to STEAL the key. The essence of what we're seeking here rests in the zone of myth... NOT ETHICS AND SOCIAL DUTY.
In reading Iron John, note that all the King's huntsmen are lost, and no one from then on ventures into the forest. It's not till the visitation by a foreign huntsman, up for an adventure, ventures there in again. And what does the foreigner say: Lord, I will venture it at my own risk; I HAVE NO FEAR. Thus he enters the forest and discovers Iron John at the bottom of a pond. Then bound and taken back to the King, Iron John is placed in a cage? And what occurs next regarding the key to unlock the cage? The story says, ...and the Queen herself was to take the key into her keeping. This is a key which can unleash the wild-man; and that's definitely something the queen/mother wants to avoid... her son, the WILD-MAN. So, if you wish to seek the father, it's definitely necessary to STEAL the key. For in kingdoms such as this, the King has little to no knowledge of, let alone a relationship with, the WILD-MAN.
Johnny stated:
With respect to Iron John as a blueprint for growth and maturation of the soul, I think you're making a great point! It's very, very important that we, as men, not just pay lip service to personal responsibility and duty...but embrace it and live it.
However, I still think we're moving too far ahead too fast to rationalize the boy's theft of the key at this point and wash our hands clean. The journey, to my mind, has still just begun.
The story opens in regards to the king's forest; and as it's structured, it symbolizes a crisis in the Kingdom. It's after the crisis is identified, that the journey of the king's son begins. And how does he begin his journey, he must FIRST steal the key which serves to release his wild-man. Thus, it's by attention given to Iron John, that he then becomes instructed.
What we seek in respect to finding the father, is not - in my opinion - something someone else is capable of explaining to us. I can only imagine the crisis to be uniquely different for everyone who encounters it. The point is to help others recognize that Iron John is real, and lives deep within the heart of every man. He's an aspect of our being that can serve to teach. And the best method I'm aware of to get in touch with him, is to first trust our PASSION, go to the edge of the forest, and cry out... iron john! Iron John!! IRON JOHN!!!
BowOfTimeLast edited on Mon Apr 25th, 2005 02:14 pm by BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Mon Apr 25th, 2005 07:57 pm |
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BowOfTime wrote: The reason a person has to STEAL the key, is because his mother will not otherwise give it to him. That is her role, to keep the key, and to keep you from it. Just as it's the role of anyone who seeks identification with the father, to STEAL the key. The essence of what we're seeking here rests in the zone of myth... NOT ETHICS AND SOCIAL DUTY.
In reading Iron John, note that all the King's huntsmen are lost, and no one from then on ventures into the forest. It's not till the visitation by a foreign huntsman, up for an adventure, ventures there in again. And what does the foreigner say: Lord, I will venture it at my own risk; I HAVE NO FEAR. Thus he enters the forest and discovers Iron John at the bottom of a pond. Then bound and taken back to the King, Iron John is placed in a cage? And what occurs next regarding the key to unlock the cage? The story says, ...and the Queen herself was to take the key into her keeping. This is a key which can unleash the wild-man; and that's definitely something the queen/mother wants to avoid... her son, the WILD-MAN. So, if you wish to seek the father, it's definitely necessary to STEAL the key. For in kingdoms such as this, the King has little to no knowledge of, let alone a relationship with, the WILD-MAN.
The reason...the essence...is that the son simply wants his ball back, and in order to get his ball back he must challenge both the authority of the queen/mother and the king/man.
This is not the key to which the wild-man is unleashed. This is the key to which the boy learns of shame and consequences for his actions among other human beings, and decides to run away from it rather than face it LIKE A MAN.
When we talk about the boy's motives, I think it's quite a stretch to say that the boy wants to become a man at that stage. I think it's much easier to make the case that the boy wants to remain a boy and do boy things regardless of his parents' intentions, and in doing so the world pulls him into unforeseen circumstances that inspire the response of a wild animal, an instinctual response to flee when his fantasy (i.e., thought filled) world collapses around him.
I think that if you feel no fear whatsoever, BowOfTime, still able to negate your fear with rationalizations, and you were me, then I would wonder which world I was still travelling in. It makes me wonder about the huntsman who captures the wild man and brings him to the cage.
Who is this fearless huntsman, anyway? A stranger, a foreigner to us! Not the queen, not the king, and certainly not the boy!
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Fri Apr 29th, 2005 01:33 pm |
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Johnny, your mischaracterizing what was stated. Your mixing together my use of the words reason and essence, and then responding to both in the same referential context. Both my comments using these terms are directed towards different contextual attributes of the discussion.
Johnny stated:
The reason...the essence...is that the son simply wants his ball back, and in order to get his ball back he must challenge both the authority of the queen/mother and the king/man.
Yes Johnny you are correct - in part. The reason can be seen to be the boys interest regarding the ball. However, that - in my opinion - is a literal interpretation of this event in the story - its more superficial character. To me, your comment appears to be interpreting that FAIRY TALE event literally. The way I read this account involving the ball, is that there's something deeper at work - as it often is in life regarding our personal mishaps. Furthermore, my use of the term essence was commenting on the deeper value of fairy tales and myth - whose primary emphasis is not to convey some ethical sociologic value.
The value here rests in this events symbolic interpretation. As with life, these stories are symbols pointing to the fact there exists deeper forces hidden in life that compel us. For me, the boys mishap with the ball seems unconsciously intentional; with the interest thus being, an initiation into the adventure.
Also, if one does wish to emphasis the ethics of his action to steal the key, then from the way the story ends, it's suggesting that action was positive; since it serves to produce a superior state of being.
Johnny stated:
This is not the key to which the wild-man is unleashed.
If that were so, then what is it that unleashes the wild-man? If the boy doesn't steal the key, then the wild-man remains trapped in a cage, and the story goes no further. As far as I can tell, this is the most direct symbolic value associated with the key his mother possesses. If I'm missing something here, feel welcome to point it out.
Johnny stated:
This is the key to which the boy learns of shame and consequences for his actions among other human beings, and decides to run away from it rather than face it LIKE A MAN.
Really? If that were so, then how did the release of Iron John hurt others? What did Iron John do after being released, that could give the boy cause for shame? It seems to me the release of Iron John is a courageous act, and repeatedly benefits those whom the boy later encounters. I see nothing in this to be ashamed of.
Johnny stated:
When we talk about the boy's motives, I think it's quite a stretch to say that the boy wants to become a man at that stage.
Who ever stated, the BOY wants to become a man at that stage? I never made that specific indication regarding the boy's conscious motives. To whom are you referring, when you imply someone here is making that stretch? I can't recall this EVER being specifically stated by anyone.
Johnny stated:
I think that if you feel no fear whatsoever, BowOfTime, still able to negate your fear with rationalizations, and you were me, then I would wonder which world I was still traveling in.
When was it ever stated that I - specifically ME - experience no fear WHATSOEVER? Again, your mischaracterizing my previous statements. I will state however, it is EXTREMELY rare for me to experience sensations of fear. And when it does occur, I tend to immediately alter my conscious perspective so to eliminate that sensation - granted this hasn't been tested in the most extreme of situations. The primary goal most relevant to everyone - in my opinion - is to prevent fear from dictating ones choice. As for negating fear with rationalizations, this is exactly what one is suppose to do - if a persons goal is to be more human, and less like an animal.
Johnny stated:
It makes me wonder about the huntsman who captures the wild man and brings him to the cage.
Who is this fearless huntsman, anyway? A stranger, a foreigner to us! Not the queen, not the king, and certainly not the boy!
Outside of the book (which I haven't read in a long time), I've only closely read the Fairy Tale once recently; therefore, the following was my frame of reference when referring to the new fearless huntsman - if I'm recalling correctly. It seems he likely represents a new development in the king's psyche. Possibly a point of crisis, where there's nothing further to loose, and a person then more boldly ( fearlessly ) explores the attributes of his dilemma seeking a cause. This is what comes to mind off hand - if you check the book, I think Bly goes into greater detail regarding this.
BowOfTimeLast edited on Fri Apr 29th, 2005 03:06 pm by BowOfTime
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Roy
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Posted: Fri Apr 29th, 2005 04:33 pm |
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Excuse the presumption, gentlemen, of intruding without having had time to really study your posts well, but....
First of all, great. Love seeing the back and forth.
I would only say to you, Johnny, about the key, that when the boy loses the ball, he loses wholeness and the capacity to be "a wild man".
Actually, it is that wild energy which civilization needs but wishes to subjugate to its own ends.
Civilization is Mom's rules to stay by the Hearth (HEART-TH) enforced by the male who got qualified to stay by her, your father.
The energy of wholeness can't be had without the key. Yes, you return to your "wild man" state, but that is the reflection of the negative view of your wholeness as seen by MOM.
Mom wants you to be a "gentleman" and Dad concurs. So, your wholeness is seen as primitive and crude.
So, what we need is the right to it, but we must use it with heart and mind (or soul).
Our "Wild Man" is the white bull that arrives from the sea.
It needs to be sacrificed to Holy Warriorhood, but instead Mom locks it up to use it herself.
So, a Minotaur is born.
That is, you become one of the fanatics of the Right or the Left politically.
Either you are weak and resent "real men" or you are strong enough to override the wound and you hold "weak" men in contempt.
We could take the complex into every area of political life, art, religion and even science, let alone your personal relationships, wife, lovers, kids and so on.
Without recovering our wholeness, we have a great tendency to tragic and tragic moral failing.
You need all of yourself just to fight for possession of your soul.
The irony is that the not-whole man fights to regain wholeness but can't do it without the aid of the Spirit, the power of coincidence, that Holy Grace which allows us to work with the Outside Force as however it manifests itself to overcome that lack of wholeness and reclaim possession of our selves under the aegis of the Spirit/Self which "arranged" the whole doing in the first place.
It is the story of the Prodigal Son, of the return of the imprisonment of Spirit in Matter.
The world (Jonah's whale, the worm from which the man emerges) is present in your parents and teachers and peer group sees the "White Bull" as grist for its mill, and wants to keep you from individuating.
They don't want to be thrown back on their own resources and envy and resent those who in their wholeness represent the embodiment of the demi-god, the mortal who is part immortal.
Whaddayathink?
Roy
Attachment: Sforzesco.bmp (Downloaded 44 times) Last edited on Fri Apr 29th, 2005 04:39 pm by Roy
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Johnny
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Posted: Tue May 3rd, 2005 08:52 pm |
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| Right now I think you guys are using this story as a vehicle for your own personal conclusions...not that I have a problem with that, it's just that I have this ball you see, stuck in this cage...and there's this key I need to procure...
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Roy
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 02:58 am |
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The personal and impersonal are closely bound in any discussion of such a topic and cannot be separated.
Objectivity consists here not just of the intellectual but the use of the whole psyche.
Roy
Last edited on Thu May 5th, 2005 12:45 pm by Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 03:04 am |
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Johnny stated:
Right now I think you guys are using this story as a vehicle for your own personal conclusions...
I don't mind you making such observations; in fact, I welcome them. However, if you have any interest for me to entertain this comment seriously, it might serve your effort to give AT LEAST ONE substantiated fact of reason. Otherwise, your observation lacks a basis for merit.
I'm just wondering here Johnny, have you yet attempted to read the book?
BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 12:59 pm |
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I did not at all mean to offend you guys personally. I really intended only to confess that I'm at an impass with this issue regarding the key and releasing the wild man.
It's not that I want to see the wild man caged by my prison guard intellect, it's that I'm having difficulty reconciling the wild man as a thing, as evidence, for one's own ideas and opinions.
To me, the wild man is akin to archetypal behavior...and my understanding of archetypal behavior does not allow my intellect to be "in charge" of the wild man as evidence for right or wrong behavior in one's life.
So when any of us argue for the release and the authority of the wild man to justify a particular personal act, to absolve us of our actions or feed our hubris regarding our actions, I think we are making a grave error.
This hunter with no fear who captures the wild man and lends him to the king for safekeeping, who is he? The representation of the king's hubris, to be taken advantage of by his own son? A son who simply wanted his ball back and got much more than he had ever asked for.
My fact of reason is the ball. If you don't mind my saying, all I see are two guys here demanding to get their balls back.
The wild man has them, my friends...not me...
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 04:43 pm |
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Johnny stated:
I did not at all mean to offend you guys personally. I really intended only to confess that I'm at an impass with this issue regarding the key and releasing the wild man.
There's no offense taken on my part; nor could I image Roy being offended by your comments.
Perhaps your take on my response is an indicator of growing up in an environment consumed by feminine energy. This then perhaps being a good reason why Roy opted to make this an all male environment.
Personally, I enjoy such debate; and tend to sometimes respond aggressively in an effort to escalate the environments tone. This manner tends to evoke deeper reflection in others, while allowing me to challenge myself. So, don't ever worry about offending me - say what you fell compelled to express.
Johnny stated:
It's not that I want to see the wild man caged by my prison guard intellect, it's that I'm having difficulty reconciling the wild man as a thing, as evidence, for one's own ideas and opinions.
To me, the wild man is akin to archetypal behavior...and my understanding of archetypal behavior does not allow my intellect to be "in charge" of the wild man as evidence for right or wrong behavior in one's life.
It seems to me this is an initial difficulty. Concern over how far one can trust the wild-man. I'd say, give him a chance and see what happens.
I suspect in your case there's little need for concern. For most people whom it seems their wild-man has been caged, they have become TOO civilized. The major problem is when young males yet civil, run amuck expressing their wild-man. Which is the time when older males should bring out their wild-man, and give the boy a good talking to - but not quite to the extreme Mr. Torrance took it to mean - REDRUM! REDRUM!
Johnny stated:
So when any of us argue for the release and the authority of the wild man to justify a particular personal act, to absolve us of our actions or feed our hubris regarding our actions, I think we are making a grave error.
This all depends on the basis for action. Was the act a defect of ego, or authentically motivated by passion/bliss. As this conversation began, the basis for my point was in regards to a passionate act likely fixated on love; and ones guilt derived from following that passion/bliss. Your expanding the context of this discussion in a way that might validate your current point - to some degree - but doesn't respond to what I, and we, were originally discussing.
Johnny stated:
This hunter with no fear who captures the wild man and lends him to the king for safekeeping, who is he? The representation of the king's hubris, to be taken advantage of by his own son? A son who simply wanted his ball back and got much more than he had ever asked for.
Hubris has never had anything to do with this discussion - as far as I'm aware. The emphasis of the points discussed, originated from an acknowledgment of guilt resultant from following ones passion/bliss. Are you now saying that your action was a result of hubris? If so, then in that case you might have something to feel guilty for - I don't know.
Also, if more of us were so lucky to get much more than we asked for, as did the king's son, then that would be of great service to ones community, and the world.
Johnny stated:
My fact of reason is the ball. If you don't mind my saying, all I see are two guys here demanding to get their balls back.
The wild man has them, my friends...not me...
Your more than welcome to say it; but... that's a rather bold statement considering you previously didn't seem to know what the ball represented; not to mention the fact you as well seemed to be interpreting that fairy tale event literally. But being the man I am, I will give your comment all due consideration... Okay, I'm done.
Again, may I suggest reading the book. It goes into great depth, and can be of much assistance regarding this.
BowOfTimeLast edited on Wed May 4th, 2005 04:45 pm by BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 05:50 pm |
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BowOfTime wrote: Johnny stated:
My fact of reason is the ball. If you don't mind my saying, all I see are two guys here demanding to get their balls back.
The wild man has them, my friends...not me...
Your more than welcome to say it; but... that's a rather bold statement considering you previously didn't seem to know what the ball represented; not to mention the fact you as well seemed to be interpreting that fairy tale event literally. But being the man I am, I will give your comment all due consideration... Okay, I'm done.
Again, may I suggest reading the book. It goes into great depth, and can be of much assistance regarding this.
BowOfTime
Now I am finally realizing that you've cried "Uncle!", BowOfTime. Please forgive if I didn't realize it sooner...getting passionate about things is something I am comfortable doing...maybe too comfortable.
I thought that the story you quoted at the start of this thread was the story of Iron John. I had no idea there was a book to make the story more convoluted and esoteric. Perhaps there I will understand better your position that events within a story can be ignored as one sees fit if it does not support one's personal interpretation.
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 07:09 pm |
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Johnny stated:
I had no idea there was a book to make the story more convoluted and esoteric.
Well, from the start Johnny, usually people in forums such as this start from a standpoint of being aware fairy tales are convoluted and esoteric. For future reference, I'll make sure your aware of this before we begin. 
BTW... UNCLE!!! You win, I just can't take the torment anymore. Have mercy... PLEASE!!! 
BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Wed May 4th, 2005 08:21 pm |
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BowOfTime wrote: Johnny stated:
I had no idea there was a book to make the story more convoluted and esoteric.
Well, from the start Johnny, usually people in forums such as this start from a standpoint of being aware fairy tales are convoluted and esoteric. For future reference, I'll make sure your aware of this before we begin.
If you had offered a more illustrative title such as "Let's have a circle-jerk with a copy of Iron John in the middle" for this thread I would have understood your expectations a little more clearly.
Forgive my ignorance, BowOfTime. Next time my manners will have shown improvement. Any further contributions by me to this thread will be made at a minimum with your public solicitation.
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Thu May 5th, 2005 12:06 am |
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Johnny stated:
If you had offered a more illustrative title such as "Let's have a circle-jerk with a copy of Iron John in the middle" for this thread I would have understood your expectations a little more clearly.
BowOfTime stated in the very first sentence, on the first page of this thread:
To start a thread on Robert Bly's book Iron John, lets begin with the Grimm's Fairy Tale - since in the book draws so heavily from it.
Johnny, the tone following this has often referred to Bly's book. It was stated, but you apparently overlooked it. However, this is not a problem, so don't worry.
I had no expectations regarding the thread, other than starting with that theme and seeing where it lead. I'm simply cueing off your statements as the discussion developed - granted I'm picking them apart a bit, and needling you somewhat.
I can't say for sure what's going on; but I get the sense there's something you might be avoiding in this matter. Thus, perhaps due to this inner activity, you keep responding with comments that are not entirely sound logically. I'm simply responding authentically to the flow as it develops. I have no definitive assumptions where it will ultimately lead; but it could be to your benefit - if there is in fact something your avoiding.
I won't make some type of humanitarian statement that my effort here is to help you, or that you even need help. I just find it fascinating to watch these debates develop. Often in the process, we learn a great deal about ourselves and the topic - especially when the discussion starts getting testy.
Your welcome to participate or not - I've enjoyed the back and forth of the conversation so far. Also, I find a good deal of value in many of your comments. On the other hand however, it seems to me you keep leaving yourself open for the way this has developed (perhaps intentionally driven by your unconscious); with it now seeming you've become frustrated. Whether or not there's something here of value, must be determined by yourself - or so I believe. I just get a sense your denying some inner truth. Often these types of debates situations can develop because of that. And who knows, I could just as easily be totally wrong.
Take Care,
BowOfTime
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Johnny
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Posted: Thu May 5th, 2005 02:02 pm |
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BowOfTime wrote: I just get a sense your denying some inner truth.
It's possible that I'm denying some inner truth...but with respect to this thread, all that has happened is that you've created a key, tucked it under your pillow, proclaimed triumphantly that it is a key that I need to steal from you...and now we have come to a halt because I refuse to steal your key.
Either use the key or don't as you see fit to unlock whatever. You made it, not me. I'm not motivated to unlock whatever you have sealed to surprise me.
If I am denying some inner truth then by implication I already know what that truth is. You now want me to take this key I have made, slip it under my dead grandmother's pillow, then sneak in later to steal it. Ludicrous. Where is the adventure here?
I'm simply bored, BowOfTime. This thread was interesting until this incessant analysis of my personal life took over. I didn't share it to be cured by you, I shared it in hopes of gaining greater insight into this fairy tale.
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BowOfTime
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Posted: Thu May 5th, 2005 04:33 pm |
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Johnny stated:
It's possible that I'm denying some inner truth...but with respect to this thread, all that has happened is that you've created a key, tucked it under your pillow, proclaimed triumphantly that it is a key that I need to steal from you...and now we have come to a halt because I refuse to steal your key.
Ahhhh... but you do seem fixated rather deeply on the key - or so it seems to me. Perhaps a halt in the discussion is what's needed at this point; making available more time for reflection.
For me, from the way Bly in the book analyzes the story, the key seems quite obvious - in regards to what it represents. Since the thread is focused on the book, that then is what the KEY represents in the context of this thread. Perhaps it can represent something else for you - I'm not sure. So far however, I don't recall you giving any alternate representative associations to the key that seemed valid - corresponding to the context of Iron John.
Johnny stated:
Either use the key or don't as you see fit to unlock whatever. You made it, not me. I'm not motivated to unlock whatever you have sealed to surprise me.
That's not something I have the ability to do - as was previously expressed. As for the KEY, the only one I possess is for my own personal use, and can not be shared. I suggest that you steal your own 
Johnny stated:
If I am denying some inner truth then by implication I already know what that truth is. You now want me to take this key I have made, slip it under my dead grandmother's pillow, then sneak in later to steal it. Ludicrous. Where is the adventure here?
If you are denying some inner truth, then I agree, YOUR SOUL does know what that truth is; but, it seems to me you don't know. Maybe this explains your earlier motivation to reveal the things you did involving your grandmother. If you don't mind me saying, your comments at this point don't seem very clear. Your implying MUCH here in a LITERAL context that I never stated - perhaps that's why it seems so ludicrous. If this is the extent to which your able to describe the KEY, then AGAIN... may I suggest reading Bly's book. If you don't have the time, it's even offered on cassette consisting of only two tapes.
Johnny stated:
I'm simply bored, BowOfTime. This thread was interesting until this incessant analysis of my personal life took over. I didn't share it to be cured by you, I shared it in hopes of gaining greater insight into this fairy tale.
Maybe you didn't share it to be cured by me, but perhaps you did share it in an effort to be cured - this is something only you can determine. Again Johnny, I've just been cueing off your comments as I interpret the situation to be inspiring me. In part, the nature of your comments (perhaps representative of what your soul seeks) has lead to this point. It might not be what you expected to gain when you began, but maybe there's something present here your seeking.
As for my analysis of passion/bliss and guilt associated with your personal life: the initial interest of my point was to express that by following BLISS, as I perceive it defined, should then be devoid of implications regarding guilt. In the sense that guilt in that context is not justified. That was my initial interest as this began. And I think I'm justified in expressing that if I feel compelled to do so. Sorry if that, and what followed, didn't meet with your expectations.
BowOfTime
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