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Corvus
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 08:15 am |
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For how many decades have engineers and scientists warned of such a disaster in New Orleans . . . Why should we care?
At least all the puke and putrid man smell might be washed away.
Maybe there is a God.
Expecting to be spanked.
late late edit,
I care for those who honestly could not make it out . . .
Last edited on Sat Sep 3rd, 2005 06:01 am by Corvus
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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 11:45 am |
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Hah! Spanked? Only if you shave your *ss first.
It is particularly amusing to hear some of the efforts to politicize this disaster by the far-left. Statements attributing this or other hurricanes of the late 20th and early 21st century to, "man-made global warming" (most recently by Robert Kennedy Jr. on ArianaHuffington.com) are so outrageous as to be nearly retarded.
First of all the most-deadly hurricanes of the last 100 years all happened before the 1930s. Add to that the fact that there is no reputable data anywhere that has established any cause-effect relationship between gobal warming and hurricane dynamics. Hurricane activity seems to follow similar spike-patterns that global temperature dynamics follow. These trends have occurred in cycles of 100 to 200 years or more over the sum of recorded history.They seem to increase in frequency/power over a period of a couple of centuries, then decline again for a couple, and have seemingly been doing so for thousands of years.
Yet, it is not difficult to find so-called "scientists" who state that the data supporting a man-made link to increased hurricane activity is "clear and obvious" - perhaps to mental patients or those with open communications links to extraterrestrials, but not to reasonable people, or honest scientists.
Even Robert Kennedy Jr. who recently gave up his long time career as a heroin addict, to suddenly try to become a politician and "environmantal activist" , has been seduced into this parade of absurdity and spouting of pseudo-scienctific propaganda disguised as "fact". The day after the landfall of Katrina, he wrote that, "It could be argued that the residents of Louisiana got what they deserved in this hurricaine because their governor vigorously opposed and lobbied against the signing of the Kyoto Protocols"! Hmmmm, not very compassionate rhetoric there Robert, when people are dying in a natural disaster. I don't think your dad would have endorsed such rhetoric, any more than he would have endorsed becoming a heroin addict. Maybe years of heroin addiction does not make one smarter after all. And here I was all ready to go out and score.
Even if the U.S. had gone along with that foolish Kyoto plan, the best scenario proposed only a 1% reduction of greenhouse gases globally. Not a single reputable weather scientist has said that they believe a 1% reduction would have the slightest influence on the present global weather system, especially not in relation to cause/effect of hurricanes - which has still not been established by any firm theoretical model that stands up to objective empirical verification.
'Sounds like Corvus is not the only one who may deserve a spanking.
PG
Last edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 11:55 am by
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Nocturne
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 03:35 pm |
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What's wrong with a good spanking?
In the spirit of Corvus's post...
This aint got nothing to do with any global warming stuff, nor any kyoto accords...the place got hit by a frigging hurricane.... shit like that happens...town planners are probably to blame and the original settlers for living there in the 1st place, the 'damn' are is beneath the water level, this thing would have happened 10 thousand years ago...or in a world without any human emissions...
you know what freaks me, makes me pissed off, within 24 hours a normal western society reverts to a 3rd world mob rule place, I hear that thugs are shooting at national guards trying to get those people out of the stadium...
we are all just a hairs breath away from mob rule
was it that bad in new york with 9/11... why did it go apeshit in the deep south ?
Shots disrupt US storm evacuation
The evacuation of stranded hurricane victims from New Orleans' Superdome stadium has been disrupted after shots were fired at a rescue helicopter.
A spokesman for the Louisiana ambulance service told the BBC the crowd had grown unruly and he was concerned for the safety of his staff.
He said a national guard had been shot, but he had not been seriously injured. Looting and lawlessness have plagued the city in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, which struck on Monday. Air ambulance rescues from the stadium have been suspended, but able-bodied people are still being moved by bus.
 There are rescue workers risking their lives to save people trapped in their homes, and now these heroes and the survivors are in danger from armed looters 
Jessica Marrero
New Orleans
Anarchy disrupts US storm relief
Looting and lawlessness is widespread in flood-stricken New Orleans as people made homeless by Hurricane Katrina grow increasingly desperate.
There are reports of shootings, carjackings and thefts across the city, where a full evacuation is under way.
all from the BBC news websiteLast edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 03:45 pm by Nocturne
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*Phil*
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:06 pm |
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Corvus wrote: For how many decades have engineers and scientists warned of such a disaster in New Orleans . . . Why should care?
At least all the puke and putrid man smell might be washed away.
Maybe there is a God.
Expecting to be spanked.
What are you - a socialist weasle?
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Roy
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:12 pm |
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I was listening to Rush yesterday and got annoyed listening to him about global warming. It is used in a false lunatic way by the left at times, but the real problem with the Kyoto Protocol is that China and India are excluded and since there is no enforcement, none of the signatories has reduced emissions at all.
It doesn't seem that we can determine with scientific precision that we are a significant, if not the principal, source of global warming.
We don't have time and means to figure that one out. To prove that it is not true is as difficult as to prove it is true.
The reality is that conserving energy is good for the bottom line, the environment and our political and economic security.
According to Natural Capitalism, the book none of you wanted to read  , we could live twice as well on half as much.
It is all about embracing the technologies that would allow us.
So we could combate the unproved "global warming" and end up more competitive, less polluted and more secure.
So go with the flow here.
The Loony Left is only concerned with seizing power to divide up the cake as they see fit. Some of the really certifiable insane ones want us to go back to living like the Indians. Not possible. Not desirable. Won't solve the problem either.
They don't understand how the cake gets made. That is inferior. Idealists in their demonic possessed state don't want to deal with that.
They want to use the emotional center to solve a problem that requires careful thought: in other words- the intellectual center.
But rhetoric and false analysis substitute for the real work they are not prepared to undertake.
About the lootin: no one looted New York in 1968 in the blackout. The next blackout about 6 years later, we had passed through the gate where you lose faith in the country. Looting was terrible.
Now looting a supermarket to get food and water is ok, as it were, but stealing Nike shoes you don't need is mere opportunism without any rationale.
Maybe Bush should have prepared better for this, but when the dykes failed, how did it become solely the responsibility of Bush that this happened?
Did the Congress not fail to override the veto? Did Clinton offer money to do the same thing?
Why couldn't New Orleans working with the state of Lousiana do the job themselves?
Why hadn't the insurance companies, the "losers" here, insisted on it in order to keep the money that now will flow out of their coffers?
The energy crisis exists because we don't have refineries. Haven't built them for about 25 years.
I think Robert Kennedy Jr. is weird. Drives an SUV. Campaigned against windmills at Martha's Vineyard.
What is he on?
And his moral point is pure left-wing guit-monging taking over for the historic right-wing Evangelical type that saw comets as indications that God was angry about iniquity here on Earth.
Roy
Last edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:19 pm by Roy
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Roy
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:13 pm |
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Actually, Corvus, you don't have to care that much. I agree with you and your reasoning.
Roy
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*Phil*
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:16 pm |
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Roy wrote: Actually, Corvus, you don't have to care that much. I agree with you and your reasoning.
Roy
The USA is THE International Aid and Ruscue. We rescued a bunch of Indonesians who hate us on the other side of the damn planet and now when our own is in deep shit we tell'em to fuck off?!?!
Last edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:18 pm by *Phil*
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Roy
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:21 pm |
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Good point.
No, we should help and I want them to be helped, THE PEOPLE, THAT IS, but it is disgusting that a predictable disaster has occurred because we wouldn't do what we easily could do to prevent the worst part of it.
New Orleans is essentially destroyed. Should we weep? No.
That is the sense of my not "caring". Actually, it is so disgusting to hear about the destruction of New Orleans, my "not caring" is just resignation to the fact and feeling that often human beings won't lift a finger to save themselves as Gurdjieff pointed out regularly.
Just help the people relocate.
RoyLast edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 06:35 pm by Roy
____________________
"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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*Phil*
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 07:06 pm |
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I noticed today that the world markets are really riled up. The Petro-Dollar is taking some big hits as if the world is losing confidence in US...
"Hey, Comrad Wang. With a third of their capability for receiving crude now out of commission, it won't matter how much those Americans are willing to pay for gasoline, they still won't have enough to be able to drive like they used too. I think we should unload some dollars."
"I say, Gerald. The looters in New Orleans are shooting at the rescue helicopters. P'raps we should unload some dollars."
"Allah Achbar! With gasoline at dollars per gallon, those infidels won't be able to grow vegetables in Southern California and ship them to New England. I think we should unload some dollars."
"Hans, they're moving refugees from one sporting stadium to another but if latecomers show up in their own automobiles they're being turned away and told that only refugees in official government busses will be admitted. Sounds like bureaucratic bumbling mixed with an overly authoritarian attitude. I think we should unload some dollars."
Last edited on Thu Sep 1st, 2005 07:27 pm by *Phil*
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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Thu Sep 1st, 2005 11:28 pm |
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My brothers, you are doing a spendid job of nailing this issue up and getting it to bleed from every extremity(partuicularly Roy- excellent post(s) with much Truth there)! I offer only points of information to clarify, for the most part.
...town planners are probably to blame and the original settlers for living there in the 1st place, the 'damn' are is beneath the water level,
In actuality, when New Orleans was established, it was above sea-level. The city fathers were not total idiots after all. Unfortunately, it is also on top of a very malleable type of soft underlayer, not much bedrock, which they could not really have known, lacking the science to understand such things yet. Without constant renewal from deposits of silt in effluent, (which have been diverted in order to have dry areas to build) it will naturally sink down. Over time, most of the area that was built upon sank down below sea level a few feet.
I hear that thugs are shooting at national guards trying to get those people out of the stadium...
Although it is possible that this is true, no government offical has confirmed this yet. It may be just a rumor. The most extreme lawlessness at the Super Dome was in parts of the stadium furthest from any oversite by law enforcement. The two murders and rapes both occurred on the uppermost levels of the stadium, where the drug-addicts and criminal types had congregated. One elderly person sadly jumped to his death from a very isolated part of the stadium for reasons that are still not clear.
According to Natural Capitalism, the book none of you wanted to read , we could live twice as well on half as much.
It is all about embracing the technologies that would allow us.
I cannot speak for my fellow Grove members, but I have that book, as all the books that Roy has recommend, on my list of "must reads". Nothing pointed out by Roy goes unnoticed by PG, you may be assured of that. As soon as I finish studying for my contractor exam, I will have more time to read and will take a good look at this one, old friend.
...when the dykes failed, how did it become solely the responsibility of the Bush administration that this happened?
That should be written in stone somewhere. In point of fact, those whose primary responsibility it was to address the isue of the protective berms and dykes( local and state officials) chose to ignore the issue over a period of many years. They rolled the dice that a category 3 storm was the worst that would happen and this time they lost - big time. The U.S. federal system is not in the buisness of telling local governments how to best serve their constituents. If there is anyone to blame it would be the civil planners in that state who did not consider the worst scenario worth planning for. Had they looked at the chances that a Force 5 storm would hit in their lifetime, they would have probably been quite alarmed. Would it have been enough to successfully pitch the expendature for a poor state like Louisiana - even if it was just for matching funds in order to get Federal funding? No way to know now. Certainly it was something that the Army Corps of engineers could well have executed. In hindsight, it would have been a lot cheaper and saved some innocent lives to have done something before it broke.
Maybe we in similar areas ( California, for instance) should take this to heart. The drinking-water supply of California is only protected from catastrophic contamination by a series of similar structures ( that keep out sea-water) built close to a century ago. Scientists say that a significant earthquake would almost certainly rupture those structures. Take note California Legislature, before you folks waste any more billions of tax dollars on idiotic programs that only please arch-liberals or corporate greenheads.
We rescued a bunch of Indonesians who hate us on the other side of the damn planet ...
They used to hate us. The impression of Westerners registered in polling went strongly towards the favorable in that region when the locals saw that we were able to protect them from crimials and violent rebels better than their own government. Muslims do tend to be practical if left to their better selves, and not brainwashed by Fundamentalist hate-mongers.
As badly as this will impact locals economically in terms of personal losses, the overall economic impact for the state may balance out in the long run. There was a depression in New York after the FI/MA attacks, but the rebound created an economic boom for much of the affected regions once the situation stablized and commerce/construction returned to normal.
The impact of Andrew's devestation was short-lived and contributed to a renewal of the state economy back in the late 1980's. Too late to help Bush 41 elevate the general economy enough to please the goyem, but those are the breaks.Sometimes political leaders are blamed by large numbers of voters for things that are not really their fault so much as conditions created by long-term cycles of activity.
If there is one important lesson for our citizens to learn form this, it may be that ( as pointed out with some justifiable bitterness by Nocturne and *Phil*) civilization is a thin veneer over a savage, brutal, unfeeling underlying Natural World. Some who are detached from this reality seem to walk around all pissed off that our society is not perfect and operate under the insane supposition that it should be.
Any culture with a long histroy of stability is at severe risk of undervaluing conservative attitudes and tend to lean towards over-confidence, such as seen on the borders of Lake Ponchatraine.
We should never forget that we sit teetering atop thousand of years of construction of civilization, and to entertain blissful ignorance of any really serious threat to that stability, (global econimic collapse fomented by international terrorism for example, or arsenic poisoning in groundwater, or WMD proliferation, or the implications of emerging super-technologies) is to indulge in a belief in fantasies of safety that no mature culture can afford.
It is a long way down to where civlization was in the 1100's, but a lot closer than most of us want to admit, even to ourselves. This incident may remind us how thin the veneer of civlization truly is and WAKE SOME OF US UP TO REALITY FROM SOME ETHEREAL DREAM OF SOME "PERFECT WORLD" JUST OVER THE HORIZON. That is the essence of political conservatism at it's best- an appreciation for what we have accomplished as a people and a culture and also of the very real dangers that could take it all away in an instant if we allow it through over-confidence or neglect.
PG
Last edited on Wed Nov 30th, 2005 11:54 pm by
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Psycho Gizmo
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 07:38 am |
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Here's an interesting link to an interview with the chief weather forecaster for something called "Accuweather" from 2004's Hurricane Ivanllandfall near New Orleans. It is eerily portentious of what happened this week in New Orleans- especially in terms of how people and politicians got used to the idea that force three was the limit, and ignored the techincal data from reputalbe scientists about a disasterous worst scenario emerging soon.
If any one faction of people are to blame for making Katrina worse, it might be the irresponsible so-called scientists, who have to some degree worn the public's patience out with exaggerated doomsday warnings that do not pan out. This "crying wolf" fatigue means that they do not readily heed authentic warnings from reputable scientists not primarily seeking publicity, who speak in terms that do not include media-buzz words and flashy over-generalizations.
For those with an interest in the technical aspects of hurricanes and some facts about them that Robert Kennedy Jr.seems to have conveniently missed completely, the gentleman even touches briefly on what is obviously now the the arch-leftist's template for reality in their attitudes about global warming, the scientifically moronic, mildly entertaining feature film "Day After Tomorrow".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2004/09/15/DI2005040307602.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2004/09/15/DI2005040307602.html
Not very flashy, but emminently more informing than that ignorant leftist partisan crap that RFK Jr. recently tried to foist off on folks as a "factual appraisal of the reality of the hurricane situation". Nothing like mis-informing the public for political expedience, eh junior? You drug-sucking dumb-ass old-school politico! Read and learn.
http://hurricane.accuweather.com/hurricane/index.asp?partner=accuweather&myadc=0
http://hurricane.accuweather.com/hurricane/index.asp?partner=accuweather&myadc=0
PG
Last edited on Tue Jun 20th, 2006 12:12 am by
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*Phil*
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 01:21 pm |
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| Blame Clinton. The country was fat from easy money and Pentagon budget cuts yet while the going was good Clinton failed to do the necessary housekeeping and home repairs. Dereliction of duty. Now we are at war and budget in the red, the maintenance work should have been done by Clinton. But typical Clinton fobbed the payback on the future.
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Roy
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 03:44 pm |
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Actually, I do blame the 90s mentality, and the emerging Baby Boomers who exemplified the mentality.
Remember in "Fight Club" when the Brad Pitt character talks about how we were all going to grow up to be rock stars and millionaires?
This was the result of our continued intoxication from participating in "youth culture", a real embodiment of the "Garden of Earthly Delights".
We just were not going to have to experience evil unless we submitted to the "Evil Patriarch".
So, we couldn't admit to having to deal with the terrorist threat, a threat which could only exist because "we" had "caused" it by embodying the "evil" of the "evil patriarch". (All excessive quotation marks dedicated to the memory of certain annoying characters at the JungForum.)
We couldn't admit to having to deal with Mother Nature's dark side, either.
So we tra-la-la-ed our way into this double mess.
That aside, had the Repubes had the good sense to replace Cheyney with Guiliani, the VP would have been the point man on the response to the hurricane, exuding exactly the kind of energy that Bush lacks.
He should have flown over the first day even though it don't mean shit and he should have complained about the level of response even though it would have just been posturing.
Roy
____________________
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Roy
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 03:48 pm |
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Yes, PG Man on your analysis of scientists and the "cry wolf" syndrome.
Roy
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Nocturne
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 05:11 pm |
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Spanks all round...
how can anyone 'deserve' this... so people live in a place not completely ideal, well apart from living in the african plains, that could count for everyone...
so frail old people 'deserve' to sweat and die from the heat in a overflow car park... thousands of poor people 'deserve' to die 'cos they didn't have a car to get out of the city... what the hell have they to do with the city engineers foretelling doom, poor innocents, thats what they are
sure being poor and not 'helping' yourself, not getting out when you should have, being so hungry and thirsty that you have to steal to live, all deserve some reprimand, maybe a stern lecture or a sharp telling off, but mass death, fu*king overkill if you ask me...
you want sympathy, I'll give you weasels sympathy, I got it in bucketloads for those poor bastards stuck there...
you heartless fuc*er, corvus
and Gizmo and Roy, you don't get away with it either, enough of the frigging politics, of the bush/clinton bashing... enough of the greenhouse stuff...f*ck all to do with an of that
this was a 'act of god' a natural disaster, in my opinion bugger all to with anything except warm tropical waters and mother nature...
and would this lack of help, this piss poor 4 day late, would it be the same if all these people where white? I don't know, it's your frigging country, you tell me....
Nocturne, pissed and narky and speaking his mind 'cos he frigging well feels like
P frigging S... Worst of all, the media, Whilst watching sat-tv, I noticed CNBC running a banner only the other day saying...
'Hurricane Katrina'... 'good for the economy'
how sick is that, give me a jungian spin on that you bunch of eggheads...
Last edited on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 05:37 pm by Nocturne
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Corvus
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 05:41 pm |
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I'm pissed that certain media reps. are blaming the feds for not reacting quickly enough. What . . . were our tax dollars suppose to be put into "action" prior to the hurricane coming to land. Do people realize how much money it would have cost to take a gamble have all those people and supplies in place only to have the hurricane take a big right and head into Florida or better yet die down to class 2 or lower.
How long do these idiots expect it to take to put into motion such a huge FEMA movement and rescue operation . . . They might as well blame Bush for not inventing some global weather manipulation device to zap the hurricane from space.
Shut the fuck up about it . . . people are dead . . . YEP . . .
Natural disasters suck . . . YEP
People shooting people . . . OH NO . . . Riots . . . OH NO . . . Looting . . . OH NO.
Do we think we are immune to such behavior after such events . . .
I refuse to turn on my TV until things settle again . . . it's so wrong to go from the theatrical media coverage, and break into a commercial about 0% financing on cars or the latest tampon invention . . . Christ.
Humans are sad.
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Corvus
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 05:42 pm |
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was it that bad in new york with 9/11... why did it go apeshit in the deep south ?
People didn't have time to anticipate 9/11, nor did 9-11 really disrupt that many peoples lives.
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Nocturne
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 06:14 pm |
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I refuse to turn on my TV until things settle again . . . it's so wrong to go from the theatrical media coverage, and break into a commercial about 0% financing on cars or the latest tampon invention . . . Christ.
With you on that!
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Roy
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 08:40 pm |
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I would be insulted, Nocturne, if I only could figure out if I actually disagreed with you or not!
See, this is what happens when you try to explain yourself to people you like and respect.
There is confusion as to just what you mean because you don't know just what you meant when you said what you said.
Gotta go and do that last run to the airport.
This crisis is just like the energy crisis.
Guilt should be to some extent on everyone's hands as everyone, or, at least, every group has participated in creating the man-made end of this disaster, the part that didn't have to be, as such.
Need food? Starving? Take the food from the supermarket. You need to do it.
Need a plasma TV? Sorry. Don't think so.
Roy
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"The force and degree of a man's inner benevolence evokes in others a proportionate degree of ill-will" - Gurdjieff
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
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Nocturne
Honored Fellow Grover
| Joined: | Wed Apr 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 676 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 08:51 pm |
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would be insulted, Nocturne, if I only could figure out if I actually disagreed with you or not!
See, this is what happens when you try to explain yourself to people you like and respect.
There is confusion as to just what you mean because you don't know just what you meant when you said what you said.
A spur of the moment bit of writing Roy...
I do like and respect you all...
Off hand and rather flippant...yes
I remember enjoying it as I typed it in, this is not a essay writing contest, thoughts come flowing out, I get sick of being constrained, the spirit of Corvus infects/liberates me sometimes...
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when will all this end?
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